Kahlers & Fretless...

Something I've been exprimenting with lately, I put a fretless neck on my Kahler'd Jazz, they work suprisingly well together, even though *most* say they would be redundant.

Much fun to be had with a large slide up high, and a divebomb on the bar, or diving and sliding up at the exact same moment, is trippy.

I see them as an extension of each other(rather than covering one ground twice), I can get lower than low, with the bar, and use it as an effect, and the fretless neck means I can pull notes far higher than a trem will manage.

The fretless means I can easily vibrato single notes, the trem I can easily vibrato chords(a hard thing to do on fretless).

That's actually quite an awesome combination, Bill! I'm not totally certain, but I think Les Claypool might own a Carl Thompson fretless or two with Kahlers on them.

He probably does, he's big into trippy stuff like this, IIRC.

funny how *most* have a lot to say ... but are really just quite redundant and ordinary themselves.

p or jazz bass plugged directly into a svt and 8X10 ... sure it sounds good ... got anything else???

thats cool. i'm glad you found some interesting stuff to do with something out of the ordinary. write some stuff, record it and post it here so we can chek it out!

You know I'm workin on my crazy *** fretless pbass thing... YEAH!

That looks like it used to be an Ibanez SRX390? I used to have one of those and I loved it, it was easily one of the nicest basses I've ever played. I regret selling it.


also the top is glassy and the bottom is still that factory matte, mine did the same thing. I think the glassy part looks better personally, I don't know why they didn't do that out of the factory.

I love the combination of trem and fretless. I am currently gathering the stuf to build me a 6 string fretless with kahler and piezo saddles. It's going to be over the top, but that's the way I like it!

Could you please tell me the name of the pickup manufacturer of 7 string bass pickups? It might come in handy for me some day.

Jim wrote:

Could you please tell me the name of the pickup manufacturer of 7 string bass pickups? It might come in handy for me some day.

I know Delano has one, and if I'm not mistaken Bartolini makes one too

I have a Carvin fretless six, might be interesting to put a trem on that.

Sorry for bumping a old thread but I've been considering putting a Kahler on my fretless.
Its a Fender Tony Franklin Fretless P bass I've Sheehanized by adding a DiMarzio Willpower neck pick up with its own output.
Its a amazing sounding bass, I'm just worried that adding a tremolo to a fretless will make playing in tune even harder.

Can you post a picture of the bass in question, Al? Specifically, one of the headstock?

I was more or less thinking outloud on that post, I think I have a different idea my next Kahler bass.
I have a old Yamaha BB300 I picked up at a swap meet around two years ago that would be a good candidate to put a Kahler on.
It has a crack on the headstock I need to get my luthier to look at first though but I was thinking of Attitudeing it by getting DiMarzio Willpower Neck and P picks and wiring them to their own out puts, getting the 17-21 frets half scalloped and replacing the tuning heads. I think it would make a great back up for my Kahlertiude.

Great minds think alike. Well....YOUR mind is great. Mine is simply rotting with age!   

A Yamaha BB300, did you say?

Me with the original band Dreamer back in 1989. Underneath that white paint is a black BB300. I was still doing the mono pickup thing, but what you see here is my very first Kahler that I got in 1984:



Me again, this time with the Ozzy/Sabbath tribute Rhoads to Ozz back in 1992. My original BB300 started falling apart in my hands, so I retired it, and got this red one. This bass was in stereo (I ran it in mono for the tribute thing), and held the very same original Kahler:



I can absolutely say with all conviction that Yamaha BB300's are excellent Kahler candidates.

Right now I can't decide between getting a Kahler and the upgrades for the BB300 or getting one for my Attitude LTD 3...

The BB300 interests me because the P Pick ups are reversed, curious to see how the Willpower P pick up sounds like that.
The downsides are it will cost alot more money for parts and labor.
It also has a crack on the head stock I will need to bring to my luthier to look at before I even seriously consider getting parts for it. (Think the guy I bought it from just tossed it in the van without a case when he was selling it at the swap meet, its pretty dinged)
Lastly, its upper fret access feels very poor compared to the my Attitudes. (Aren't I suppose to be a bass player?) I considered getting some wood shaved down to improve it but again, thats adding to labor.
The parts I would need to get are: Kahler, Willpower P and Neck Pick Ups and new tuning machines.
All that plus installation and its getting pretty steep but on the plus side I'd have a bass very similar to my Attitude that would be great for taking to gigs in the more rougher parts of town.
Now if I get a Kahler for my Attitude LTD 3, I know it works and will come out awesome with out spending all that money on parts.

Right now I think I'm learning towards the LTD 3, then maybe over time picking up parts for the BB300 when they come up cheap.
Honestly I just want a second bass with a Kahler on it hahaha.
I'm mostly just telling myself its for back up purposes if something happens to the LTD 2 but really I think I'm just obsessed with bass tremolos now.

I don't blame you for being so cautious, Al, especially considering the condition of the BB300 in question.

Yamaha has re-issued the BB series, and they are really well-made.

I got the chance to play an older BB300 about six months ago, and it was disappointing. But not because of the bass so much, but more to do with the fact that my new Twins are a serious upgrade from the BB300 (and are, in fact, based on the BB series).

Yeah, I understand your GASsing for another Kahlerized bass!

Few years ago there was some sellers nearly giving away the Yamaha BB714BS on ebay, really wish I picked one up then.
They have the neck woofer already, would only need to be wired stereo and have a Kahler dropped in!
Haven't seen any of them around recently.

Your Twins look so awesome, wish I could give them a go some day!

I think its gonna be the LTD3 that gets the Kahler.
Hopefully soon!

Actually, before I managed to obtain the funding for the Twins, I almost pulled the trigger on a BB714BS, since it was already set-up for stereo. Honestly, in hindsight, I'm glad I waited.   The Twins are completely designed and built around my needs/wants as a player, and I still cannot believe just how they sound and play, even after almost two years of having them. 

If you ever get down our way Al, you can bet that you'll test-drive the Twins!

Keep Us posted on the LTD3!   

I still find myself dreaming about a Kahler on my fretless...
Every few months I'II start listening to Sadus or certain Death albums and Steve DiGiorgio makes me pick up my fretless.
Check out these fretless fills

And of course The Philosopher by Death

Awesome bass solo in that one.

I really love the sound of my Fender Tony Franklin Fretless P Bass but I don't want to end up ruining it it in case the Kahler and Fretless just doesn't work out so I decided I'm going to get a P bass body at some point and get the Kahler and pick ups for it and use the neck from my Tony Franklin so I've got the option to put it back on its original body if things don't work out. I'm debating if I should experiment with some new pick ups, I put a Willpower neck pick up in the neck position on the TF bass and wired it stereo, the other pick ups are stock and they sound really good. Handle overdrive really well. Thinking maybe I should try the same pick ups as in my Attitude and maybe some DiMarzio jazz pick up for the bridge but part of the reason I love my fretless is that it sounds different from my Attitudes. There is some Seymour Duncan Steve Harris pick ups on craigslist right now for a good price calling me... might be interesting to give it a shot. The string angles on the neck are perfectly straight so I'm pretty confident this will work out. Not too sure when this will get started. Gotta save up for a bit but I'II update you guys when things start rolling.

Ah yes....that old nemesis known as GAS.

I sometimes miss having a fretless myself.

If you are going to get another body, no reason not to try out some different pickups.  I would be tempted to use a MM style humbucker in the bridge, a P in the P spot, and a Gibson style mudbucker in the neck(I guess the new ones aren`t that muddy anymore).  Then run stacked pots for V-V-V-T to play with blending.  Could make some interesting noise.

Though, you know if you have a P bass that is complete minus neck, you will eventually want to get a neck for it again.  Your basses are multiplying by splitting off and re-growing

-Jake

Rather go with a jazz pick up at the bridge and get a different brand. You are right about wanting to get a new neck down the line though, at the moment I don't wanna spend a ton of money or else I'd just get a new neck now. Not a fan of stacked pots so I'd go one output Mudbucker V-T then P and J pickups V-T.

I can see wanting a jazz in the bridge. Though my MM style on one bass that has a coil tap can get a reasonable approximation of one. I also don`t care for stacked pots, but though it could look really clean on a precision pickguard. Though you could probably get away with four control holes and a side jack plate(seen a few like that).

Yeah thats what I was thinking aswell with the side jack. Kinda what I got going on already on my fretless since it has two outputs but I'd like to do it a bit better with the new body.

Well it looks like things are underway.
Picked up a American Kahler shipped for 90 bucks shipped on Talkbass.
Pretty good deal!
Now the harder part, finding a body.
Not sure I want to get a body made from Warmoth or pick up something being parted out on talkbass.
Wasn't really planning on starting this soon the Kahler forced my hand, doubt I'd be getting one that cheap anytime soon.

Keep us posted, Al. Post pictures if you can!

Heres a picture of the trem from the sale


I'II post more when I start getting more parts!

Ah yes. That is indeed an older fiver you have there, Al. The new frames are the same as the sixers, which allows more side-to-side adjusting. Nonetheless, you've got a real beauty!

Decided on getting a separate neck for this bass, going to order it soon. Likely going to be this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Fender-Precision-Bass-Neck-Fretless-No-Lines-No-Finish-PEO-F-/331221787120?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4d1e5b61f0

For pick ups, since I'm cheap and wanna save money I'm going to take the pickups out of my Blue Attitude LTD1 (I haven't played this bass in years) so then I just need to get the bridge jazz pickup.
Not sure what I wanna get there, a Dimarizo Model J or a Seymour Duncan SJB-2. Might just get whatever I can find used.
Dimarizo appeals to me abit more since its hum cancelling.

Great looking neck, Al! And, if it were me, I'd get the DiMarzio Model J, hands down.

Have you used it before? the Duncan has alot of mids which is what I'm looking for it.

Trem came today.
I feel kinda dumb, I didn't realize that this trem has the forward saddles. Will this create any problem on a standard P bass body?
Might have to with a Jazz bass body now?

The more I think about it, the more I'm liking the idea of a Jazz body.
Might get something made from Warmoth.
Alder body, flamed maple top with a transparent green finish.
Get it routed on the back (assuming it wouldn't mess around with the Kahler) so theres no pickguard covering up the flamed maple.

Whoops! Sorry for answering this late, Al!

If memory serves me correctly, a forward-facing roller Kahler will not fit on most standard Fender Precisions. A Jazz might work with a forward unit.

MadMike? Thoughts?

As far as DiMarzio vs Seymor Duncan, I would still go with the DiMarzio, no question. SD does make a lot of fine pickups, but I have always found the DiMarzios to have more mids and output. Honestly, I have used the Model J more times than I can remember. And since you and I are on the same page as far as tone-chasing goes Al, I feel pretty confident in saying that it's the DiMarzio you would prefer. Of course, that's just my two-cents, but for what it's worth!

I asked Kahler's facebook page, they said it will fit on a Jazz so I think I'm going to go the Warmoth route!
Alder body, quilted maple top with a green burst finish and all black hardware should be pretty sexy looking.
The neck has been ordered. I just need to make up my mind on the jazz bass pickup and the rest (tuners, neckplate and what not) I'II get from Warmoth when I order the body.

You raise a good point, we do go after a pretty similar tone. One thing I am wondering though, I notice that on my Fender Fretless, when I crank the P and J bass pickup there is no loss of output like I noticed alot when I had a Geddy Lee Jazz Bass years ago. Would have pickups with a similar output create that loss of output? I get the same thing on my Attitude basses when I put it on mono model and crank the woofer and the P pick up (I never use this though, been meaning to have it removed). So I think that if having two pick ups with similar output causes this, getting something with less output might be the better choice. The Seymour Duncan tone chart says it has more mids than Dimarizos tone chart but I have no idea if they are compatible with each other and there isn't really alot of demos of these pick ups on youtube, atleast not in the ways I want to hear them.

this is a jaguar body. its the same scale (34") and body size as a jazz and both are bigger than a p bass body. with this scale, the intonation line would be 17" from the 12th fret. behind that line the kahler 2410 or 7410 needs 1.9" of body real estate AT LEAST to be intonated properly and not hang off the back of the body.

the 2410 and 7410 usually comes right to the back of the body end with intonation saddle range all the way back on a p bass body. the jazz bass the kaher position is where it is in my pic.

2400 and 7400 forward saddle style kahlers need more than 1.9" to not be hanging off the back. more like 2.25" - 2.5". thats not very many basses. maybe basses with the post and bridge style like alembic or warwick. i can say for sure a 2400 or 7400 wont work on a p bass and thinking ittl probably hang off a jazz or at least be to the very back end.

even if i had an alembic or warwick and all that real estate behind the intonation line, i still wouldnt use a 2400 or 7400. not necessary. any bass thattl fit a 2400/7400 would fit a 2410/7410 just fine. i dont know why kahler even makes em.

so yes, a kahler (any kahler) will fit on that bass (any bass). just flop it on there anywhere ittl fit.

oh, you wanted it to intonate properly?

i dont know who told you what would on what on the facebook page but i would take info on that page with a grain of salt. ive heard many say this will or wont fit but heard very few as to why. i have also seen a lot of installs that dont intonate properly.

Well its a fretless... I might my own intonation right?
Joking aside, thanks for your help Mike!
I'm not sure who answered, but it was someone on Kahlers facebook page so they must have some idea of what they are talking about but I understand what you mean though.
Yeah I wonder why they make the 2400 at all aswell. I still think I'II go with a Jazz body. If It hangs off the back abit I'II live with it. I use Mono cases so I can't go with some whacky shape with more real estate and still fit it inside and screw hauling hardcases when I take transit.

Or I could just do this




Have you ever seen a more holy bass?

its ... its whammy jesus! i love the tremolo savior.

a jazz bass body has plenty of real estate with a 7410 or 2410.

my carvin v440 that i built. when i measured the body length from the scale and cut the body i measured 1/8" + 1.9" from the intonation line so ide have 1/8" from the back of the kahler 7410 to the back of the body.

i didnt take into account the .25" round around the body ....

so the kahler is sticking out of the round at the back of the body. ha!

truth be told ... ide rather see someone with the kahler hangin off the back and know they understand intonating it properly. within 5 minutes of playing or hearing someone else play, i can tell its off ... and it drives me crazy!

wow ... they even hacked the frame off the back of the kahler base.

you seem favorable to the xx00 models. the xx10 models fit and intonate correctly on more basses. that jazz body should fit a xx10 model no problem. one of the xx00 models would be close. i never used or measured one. what ... you have a 2400 sittin unused?

my last kahlered bass project was that jaguar with the jazz neck. i came up with some design changes to eliminate the tree and increase the angle of the D and E string. i had no tuning issues whatsoever. lemme know if your interested and ill show you how i did it.

well, heres the jag i did.

yes, you have a xx00 model.

in comparison with where the intonation line is if the rollers were on the front, the base of the kahler would be pretty close to the tail end of a jazz body. you need to measure to be sure.

do you understand how i came up with 1.9" from the intonation line for a xx10?

I think so, 17" from the 12 fret and measure from there?
I don't have a jazz body on hand here, do know a couple people with them though. Might be able to measure theirs.
Yes I am interested in how you got rid of the string tree. I wasn't planning on using one for the neck.

any bridge has its intonation range; the forward most and rearward most adjustment of the saddles. the bridge's intonation line is the middle of that forward and rearward adjustment range. that line to the back of the kahler base is 1.9".

the mid point of the saddle range to the back of the base on a xx00 is more than 1.9". i never measured one. measure yours and let us know what it is. i estimate it to be 2.2" to 2.4".

if you determine the intonation line spot on the body (17" from the 12th fret on a 34" scale bass or midway between the E and G saddles on a properly intonated bridge) then you want the middle of the adjustment range right on that line so you have enuff forward or rearward adjustment travel for each saddle to reach that string's intonated spot.

make sense?

i had a thread with the trick i did to the jazz neck. i gotta go find it.

and aww snap!

i keep giving all these units of measurement in inches. your in canada al. ya'll dont use no inches in yer neck of the woods; aint?

We use the Metric system but rulers/tape measures and what not all have inches.
When it gets to units lower than that, gets kinda tough then I barely know metric let alone imperial.

we kinda hijacked this thread. oops.

heres the thread with the jaguar build that i modified the tuning machines so i wouldnt need a string tree and overcame tuning issues.

https://basstremfanatics.forumotion.net/t976-cant-drive-one

I measured it on my P bass, the 2400 would hang off the back for sure properly intonated.
Would just barely be on the body of an Attitude. Gonna go measure it on body of a friends Jazz bass.