Drop Tuning & kahlers

I just put on a set of Heavy gauge GHS Boomers and drop tuned to CGCF. So far just the heavy gauge strings sound awesome. They really ring and have great harmonics. The bass sounds really cool now. I need to adjust the intonation next a little. The kahler seems to work fine with the drop tuning & heavy gauge strings (two spring front roller)


I was going to put them on my Les Paul, but I found GHS Long scale are not long enough, due to the LP tail piece.

I would need extra long scale heavy gauge strings which GHS do not come in.

I am going to have fun with the RD for a while.

On a side note why does he drop tuning use two open C strings?

It really amazes me that so many of you guys have such great luck with only two springs.

Honestly, I cannot get a two-spring unit to return all the way for nothing. Maybe I divebomb further?

And I have never experimented with drop tunings, so I am at a loss as to why it has two open C's.

i dont understand how you guys are getting away with two springs either. i never attempted it ... but it just seems like it wouldnt work anyway ... unless you were dropped tuned with xtra light gauge strings.

45 to 105 gauge sets that i usta use seem to pull the cam pretty far up tuned to drop d.

the trem operates easier with 40 to 100s, so i just changed across the board.

and dog ... this seems to me to be a simple answer to your question because i might not understand what your asking .... is this tuned to a drop c? a drop tuning has the top string a step lower than the rest of the standard tuning.

maybe a better example (that word "standard" bugs me. lets make what standard is)

standard tuning ..... e,a,d,g.

drop d tuning ....... d,a,d,g. the top d and 3rd d strings are one octave apart.

drop c would be ...... c,?,c,?. sorry ... i dont have a tuner or any reference handy ... but is this what you mean?

what a drop tuning does for me? first and foremost ... i learned to play a lot of tool songs this way. justin chancellor is a big influence in my playing style and this is the tuning he uses. it is such a subtle change that transposing most rock music in e tuning is easy (just 2 frets up on the top string respectively.). it gives me a lower range on the 4 string set without resorting to a 5 string bass (not as low as a 5 string b but lower none the less). with the 1st and 3rd string in d it gives me more opportunity to use chords ... i love writing songs where i can slap all 4 strings on a d chord tonic apex. chek out tool's 3rd eye.

i dont like tuning down to a c or drop c ... makes the strings too loose and noodeley. i like the strings to have some resilliancy and response to them. some think that the lower notes sound cool but i think i sound cool without resorting to such a deep low tuning. low drop tunings have become a standard these days in a lot of hard rock and i've walked away from bands because of it. i just dont wanna hafta re - do the setups on my basses to accomodate such less tension on the neck just to play in these unnecessary tonics that i dont like. write badder riffs than resorting to a badder, lower sound.

dont get me wrong ... if you dig it ... keep doin it. its bass ... low sounds good!

CGCF is Drop C standard tuning.

I went by this Talk Bass article-

Drop Tunings on a 4 string bass - The correct way

Cruising along Talkbass it becomes clear there's a lot of misunderstanding regarding altered tunings on bass. Lots of threads with lots of conflicting information. I'm gonna try and clear some of these up.

First off, a disclaimer: Despite the thread title I'm never going to insist that my way is the CORRECT way of doing anything. I am a professional bassist of 22 years, have played for / toured with over a dozen bands and logged many many studio hours on various different projects. My specialty is Metal. Everything I say relates to my EXPERIENCE, not an insistence that I'm right!

The first problem when discussing altered tunings is lack of a common language. When one refers to "Standard" Tuning in relation to electric guitars and basses, they're indicating an instrument whose strings are individually tuned in FOURTHS. Each string's open note is one Fourth up from the string below it. Whether the lowest string is tuned to E, D, C, B etc etc, if all the strings are tuned upwards in Fourths, its "Standard" tuning. When referring to lowered tunings in standard one would say "I'm in D-Standard" ( D-G-C-F ) or "I'm in C-Standard" ( C-F-A#-D# ) This is commonly referred to as "Downtuning"

"Dropped Tunings" on the other hand, refer to an instrument with its lowest string tuned a FIFTH below the second lowest string... or one whole step lower than Standard - with the rest of the strings being tuned in Fourths. In this case one would say "I'm in Drop-C" ( C-G-C-F ) or "I'm in Drop D" ( D-A-D-G ).

If you're working with guitar players using altered tunings... make sure they know what they mean when they say "Drop-C". Having a common language within a group is the key to communication!

Drop tunings are very popular among guitar players, especially in the more aggressive genres where big sound and speed count. Many professional bassists, when faced with with Drop-Tunings, prefer to keep their instrument tuned in standard and simply transpose what the guitar players are doing. This is not so simple if you aren't used to it, and very difficult when using a 4 string. For these and many other reasons, many bassists chose to follow their guitarists down this path, but its important to be aware of how this affects your sound and the playability of your instrument in order to get the most out of it!

Stringed instruments are very precise machines. String gauge, bridge saddle height and placement (intonation), action and setup are all dramatically effected by altered tunings. If one element in the equation is wrong, it affects all others... resulting in poor tone and difficult playability. This is even more true on bass, on account of the longer scale, relative thickness of the strings, and the fact that most of us don't play with obscene amounts of distortion as guitar players often do. (distortion hides a lot of bad sounds!). If one drops their lowest string a step below standard, the first thing you'll notice is the inconsistency in string tension... the low string will feel and even sound "floppy" or loose. If one drops their whole instrument one whole step, and the lowest string two whole steps ( Drop-C )... then a whole host of problems occur... you have dramatically reduced the tension on your neck, causing it to naturally back bow (the opposite of relief) making your frets buzz, The low string is loose and floppy compared to the other strings and ALL the strings are resonating at too low a frequency for them to ring out correctly at a 34" inch scale length. Congrats.... your instrument now sounds, plays and feels like crap.....and that's not even the worst part! Whether you realize it.... even if your bass is perfectly in tune string to string... you are OUT OF TUNE most of the time. Try this experiment: Tune just your lowest string (E) down two whole steps to C. Plug in your tuner. Now lightly pluck your Low string and let it ring out while watching the tuner carefully. The note will immediately swing 10 to 20 cents sharp (higher) than C, then swing 10 to 20 cents flat (lower) than C, before finally settling at C. This is the result of your string being too thin to accurately create that note on a given scale length (usually 34").

The first step to correcting these issues is proper string gauge. Putting together a proper string set for Drop-Tunings is imperative. Unfortunately, no one makes a bass string set made specifically for dropped tunings, so you'll have to build one yourself. Most music stores sell E and B string SINGLES. You'll need to buy a 4 strings set, and an additional E or B string Single to get a properly matched set for Drop-Tunings. Below is a list of recommended gauges:

"Drop-D"
D - 110
A - 80
D - 60
G - 40

(This is basically a medium-heavy set with the E string from a heavy set. Most stores sell E and B string singles.)

"Drop-C"
C - 120
G - 90
C - 70
F - 50

(Heavy set with B string from a lite set)

"Drop B"
B - 130
F# - 95
B - 75
E - 60

(This is one of the heaviest B string you can buy, with the lowest 3 strings from an extra lite 4 string set.)

Using these suggestions will leave you with a nice even feel from string to string, keep the tension on your neck consistent, and will sound great as a result of using strings at or close to their designed notes.

Next step is action. Even using the recommendations above, you may still notice that your action has gotten lower or higher. This is a result of a change in total tension on you neck. You should not need to adjust your bridge saddles for height if you build a correct set, but you may still need to adjust your neck relief using the truss rod. If you are not comfortable doing this yourself, bring the bass to your local shop. These adjustments are very easy for a professional and may come at very little or no charge (especially if you're buying strings!) but make sure it gets done. A neck with too much relief will be very difficult and tiring to play... a neck with little relief will buzz all over the place. There are many philosophies regarding neck relief and setup in general, and many heated debates over what is correct. I'll say that for me, the commonly accepted "correct" way results in string action that's too high for me. I work towards a completely flat fretboard with zero relief.... but I play with a very light touch and this will definitely NOT work for players with a heavy touch or players who use a pick.

Last Step: Intonation. This is VERY important. If your alter the tuning on your instrument, you may notice that the higher up you get on the fretboard, the more your notes don't exactly match. This is due to intonation. When you bought the bass it was likely setup at the factory for E-Standard tuning. Intonation is and adjustment of the LENGTH of each string, made by bringing your bridge saddles closer or further away from the end of the instrument (as opposed to higher or lower for string height). Again, this is a delicate and precise adjustment, so if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, bring it to a pro. There are also several very good "How-To" threads on Talkbass regarding all these adjustments. Remember ALL of these adjustments; string height, intonation and neck relief... will affect your tuning. Remember to RE-TUNE your bass after these adjustments are finished.

Congrats! Your bass is now optimally set up for Drop-Tunings!

*** The string gauges required for Drop-B may require you to file your nut down in order to accommodate them. ONLY DO THIS if you are sure you'll be using this tuning for a long period of time, as you will need to replace your entire nut if you want to switch back to a higher tuning!



You need heavy gauge strings so they are not loose & noodley.

The reason it seems to work on my Kahler is that although they are heavy gauge/tension strings, being detuned makes them close to regular tension, thus the Kahler, so far, does not have a problem. Much like a short scale bass where you need heavy gauge strings, but they still are quite bendy. The E string barely fit in the bridge string retainer slot.


My Kahler was an early or first model when they first came out, in the days before internet, CD'sd & digital technology.



So far the feel & power are really cool. The tuning & different positions will take some getting used to though.

I can't be the only one who has tried this with a Kahler here am I?

Quote :

Barklessdog wrote:

I can't be the only one who has tried this with a Kahler here am I?

I've tried a few drop tunings(not drop C yet), B-E-A-D tuning, half step down, D-G-C-F, D-G-C-F-Bb, Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-B, and a few others, had one set up for Drop A,that was B-E-A-D, with the B down a step.

Never had trouble.

well "drop","alternative" whatever you wanna call it, I love to tune differently...why? because I'm old and after so many years it is refreshing to try and figure out what frets are now what notes, different than EADG.

#1 transposing is actually FUN, and it give you different "open" strings.
#2 it drives the guitarplayers CRAZY, cause they can't watch me for help. (they are on the 3rd fret for G, and I'm on the 5th )..lol

Does EADG make my Kahler go crazy?...no
Does DGCF make my Kahler go crazy?...no
Does CGCF make it go crazy...yes, due to the normal strings on it...C is too low for a .100 E string.

BEAD??? never tried cause I don't have a nut that will hold more than a 105 E string, and I doubt I will be filing it for a .115/.120/.130 E string anytime soon

Oh, and though it wasn't on a Kahler, I have gone as low as EADG an octave below standard.

So, when has Kahler made 2 and 3 spring trems? The 2400 I just bought has three springs on it. The 2410 I have just has two. I should ask the guy about the year that bridge was made. The 2410 I have is from '84 or '85, seeing as the bass was made in '85, but I don't know how long it took to make Jackson CS instruments back then. The 2400 looks like it was made within those first couple of years, but the arm is drastically different from any other Kahler arm I've seen.

I've never tried doing anything with drop tunings. Eb sounds good with a Kahler, so does D, if you set it all up differently. That's about as crazy as I've gotten.

Alternate tunings are cool...but I ain't smart enough! I don't look like I know what I'm doing in drop D!

But that sounds awesome. I don't think I've ever played a bass in drop C? Would probably be meaty!

The only reason my two spring kahler works well at all is because I have a rather light set of strings on it (I really don't care for light strings, just too floppy for me ). I do have a hipshot d-tuner on the bass that has a kahler, and that worked surprising well with the trem. It doesn't make the other strings go out of tune at all. That's as far as I go for drop tuning (unless you mean stringing up basses lower than normal, but still within the "standard" pattern of fourths that an extended range bass would have), because I really don't like having to relearn where every note is. I'd rather use a bass with more strings than have to retune my bass for every other song. XP

Martin, the very first generation of 2400's had only two springs, then Kahler added the third spring after players started reporting problems with the bars returning to pitch. My first Kahler had three springs, since the design was already a couple of years old at that point.

So when Kahler went back into tremolo production, they used only two springs on the 7400 series. And yes, I was the one who told Gary Kahler through Wammi J that the bass trem needed that third spring. Gary listened, and the rest is history.

EricHaven wrote:

Martin, the very first generation of 2400's had only two springs, then Kahler added the third spring after players started reporting problems with the bars returning to pitch. My first Kahler had three springs, since the design was already a couple of years old at that point.

So when Kahler went back into tremolo production, they used only two springs on the 7400 series. And yes, I was the one who told Gary Kahler through Wammi J that the bass trem needed that third spring. Gary listened, and the rest is history.

Huh okay. That's what I figured. I could always just ask the guy when he got this trem. But that would be too easy.

Yvarg wrote:

I really don't like having to relearn where every note is. I'd rather use a bass with more strings than have to retune my bass for every other song. XP

like I tell quite a few of the "youngsters" out there....

think with your ears not with your eyes

it does get dark in a venue when the lights are low and flashing, and you can't see $h@t to begin with

amimbari wrote:

Yvarg wrote:

I really don't like having to relearn where every note is. I'd rather use a bass with more strings than have to retune my bass for every other song. XP

like I tell quite a few of the "youngsters" out there....

think with your ears not with your eyes

it does get dark in a venue when the lights are low and flashing, and you can't see $h@t to begin with

It's always something I aspire to--being able to see the frets with my fingers.

your fingers dont see the frets, they feel the strings vibrate under them. when you can tell what note a string will make once you have your "base" notes in your head, translating what note is now on what fret is easy since your still in a standard tuning of EADG/DGCF/CFA#D# ...whatever.

the tough part is not having to stop and think about it... A-string 2nd fret is now A, not B
E-string 5th fret is now G, not A ...etc

( and at least 10 years of practice sure helps )

Mhmm it's all about matching the patterns to the tuning, then bam.

Somtimes I find myself addicted to looking at the frets, but other times, I don't have to look at all. Depends on how the stars/planets are aligned.

This is something I wish I were better at, but I also find myself looking at the neck a lot. Granted, this could have to do with the amount of soloing I do, since I can usually ride the root parts without looking at the neck too much.

Way back before I got contact lenses, I used to gig without my glasses on, and be blind as a bat. To compensate, I used to paint Liquid Paper along the side of the neck within the frets that had the markers. That way, no matter what color lights hit the neck, the marked frets would light up like a Christmas tree, and I could navigate the neck at a glance with no trouble at all.

Oh great idea. I've seen a lot of metal bands (a lot of European ones, especially) use white/glow tape on the back of their guitars' necks.

amimbari wrote:

Yvarg wrote:

I really don't like having to relearn where every note is. I'd rather use a bass with more strings than have to retune my bass for every other song. XP

like I tell quite a few of the "youngsters" out there....

think with your ears not with your eyes

it does get dark in a venue when the lights are low and flashing, and you can't see $h@t to begin with

Well I try to leave the thinking to my brain (usually) , but generally I think it's easier to build up muscle memory in one or two tunings so that your hands know where to go to play that one fill you have in mind for the last beat of the second verse, rather than you having to think about which of the seven different tunings you're in at the moment and what kind of fingerwork will be required to play that lick. You know what I mean? It's also why I try to learn to play songs without using open strings at first (obviously, this isn't always possible); that way I don't need to think about where my fingers are going to have to go when the lead guitarist looks at me and motions that we're going to suddenly change the key to Eb, you just move the "pattern" up/down x amount of frets.

I'm sure it makes perfect sense to other people to just change the bass' tuning, and that's great for them. I'm just saying what I find works for me.

Oh yeah, glow in the dark tape/LED inlays for dark stages (neither of which I have, but that's because of how "often" I gig).

I always have two thoughts about LED inlays--how much I want them on one of my basses and how much they would blind/distract me.

Yvarg, I tend to make things more difficult and challenging, even with my band...why?

I'm always looking for a new musical challenge that fits into what I do normally because I tend to have a ton of ADD ACHD laziness, and for me to play something differently, even if it is just different frets producing the same notes on the bass, is fun, and keeps me from thinking I'm still doing the same old song for the um-teenth time.

From day 1, I could only rely on the edges of the fretwire to tell me where I'm at, since flipping guitars puts the dots on the wrong side.
Because of that, I rely on my memory a lot more forfretting hand angles, holding the bass at a certain angle to create that familiar hand position, and generally when in a dark room, it always helped my brain acquire where my hand should be for the next note or pattern even though I'm tuned to god knows where.

the "relearning where the notes are on the frets" in an alternative tuning takes a lot of time, practice, to figure it out but once you can do it...you never forget

...for me, the first note is all it takes to make my brain reacquire the new fret positions and I'm good to go for the song.

this is why SOOOOOOO many people are using 5 and 6 stringers, so everything stays the same no matter what songs you have to play no de-re tuning period. ONE do-all bass for songs in EDCBA...whatever...

MOST IMPORTANTLY -- you are absolutely correct, this is a technique for me....anything you do to help you is good for you.

This discussion reminds me of why I love the Yamaha BB series basses so much. Since it was this model of bass that I played exclusively for many, many years, my hands learned where everything was on the bass so well that I could play any Yamaha BB bass, and my hands and fingers always found the right places to go on their own. This is still true to this day.

Yvarg, I also think you raised an good point about learning technique. I, like you, am more of a "learned pattern" player, and I never, ever think about what it is I'm doing, because I always end up crashing and burning if I do. When I am doing some really fast soloing, the only reason it makes any sense (well....assuming that it does make any sense at all ) is due to the patterns I have learned on my own, by ear, about note association. Now, I will never insist that this is the correct way of going about it, but it's what I fell into. And to this day, it works for me just fine.

Mike, this has everything to do with why you impress me so much, because you have such a commanding knowledge of notes and scale structure that you can play in any number of tunings, but always know where you are. I can honestly say that I will never become so knowledgeable of the fretboard. Again, I'm not expressing any regret over how I learned things. Only acknowledging your abilities.

EricHaven wrote:

This discussion reminds me of why I love the Yamaha BB series basses so much. Since it was this model of bass that I played exclusively for many, many years, my hands learned where everything was on the bass so well that I could play any Yamaha BB bass, and my hands and fingers always found the right places to go on their own. This is still true to this day.


Mike, this has everything to do with why you impress me so much, because you have such a commanding knowledge of notes and scale structure that you can play in any number of tunings, but always know where you are. I can honestly say that I will never become so knowledgeable of the fretboard. Again, I'm not expressing any regret over how I learned things. Only acknowledging your abilities.

your 2 "speeches" are 100%

#1 find a guitar you actually feel comfortable playing and stick with it and it will take you far. If your BB neck is your holy-grail, then dammit, let's find you one CHEAP already ....hahaha BD, MM, CB, YV, KU, BOBO...all of you found a guitar(s) you can actually work with, and not let IT control you.

#2 I am a nobody in the sea of famous bassplayers, but to my friends and associates, I've always been a good player with lots of ideas to bring to the table.
#3 tuning to a "STANDARD" tuning is irrelevant when it comes to one note at a time, and MEMORIZING ...mainly the reason when I play, like you Eric I CANNOT look at the frets, because then I ALSO START thinking in EADG, and it DOES mess me up a LOT!

I have been playing the same guitar necks for at least 20 years, which all started with a 1987 Jackson. Since the neck specs are all the same on the Jacksons for a million units, I always felt at home.

let me tell you a story about tuning:
I was over a friends house to jam with their gang last week. I brought my Charvel. he wanted to show me the new Dean he bought.....nice bass but the action was SO HIGH off the board I could not even play it. He strapped it on, and made me look like a fool in front of about 15 people......
WELL I was pissed, and not nearly drunk enough, I saw their songlist and said "Let's do SLOWRIDE by Foghat" ... simple enough song...BUT I told him to detune to DGCF, and I would give him 5 minutes to figure it out now that he had to remember that he would have to move his position up to match the correct note.

NEVER WORKED.....why? Because he was not thinking with his brain, he could only "remember" the standard version that was written in EADG that he played 1000 times. He was thinking with his eyes and kept hitting the correct fret for standard tuning, not the correct fret for the actual note. IT WAS MY LAUGH BACK AT HIM FOR MAKING ME LOOK LIKE A FOOL CAUSE I COULD NOT PLAY HIS CRAPPY HIGH-ACTION DEAN

( he is a very good bassplayer just so you all know, and I'm sure with practice he would have figured it out, but not on the "fly" )

Great story, Mike!

And thank you for your call of support for my love of Yamaha's, but fear not my friends! The day when I can drop the coin enough to get every single piece of gear I have been wanting is not too far off!

That's how I feel on my favorite Ibanez/Hamer/Charvel necks. Damn, it's so easy to fall in love with the Jackson/Charvel neck shape.

Different tunings are great for when you really want to get a feeling for playing with your gut. Also really good at toning your perception of the fingerboard.

I found it pretty easy to adapt to the drop tuning, so far as I tend not to thing about where or what I am doing on the bass other than trying not to do "cliche for me" things.

I used to always learn songs by ear, so I just slide around the neck till you find the root or contrasting notes.
Because of this drop tuning becomes natural, except for trying some things that are that are typical for standard tuning. Thats what makes the new tuning a breath of fresh air for me.


I also found the same true of playing a six string bass. The Six string bass however was not as "Fun" to play for me as the technical parts were a pain in the arse, like muting strings, the precision required, due to tighter string spacing etc.

Just not as fun for me.

I had a Warwick Five string for a bit, but found the B string became a thumb anchor 90% of the time or I would become dependant on the open B too much.

well Eric, I hope someone left you 10 grand ....not for you as the recipient of the money naturally cause I'd take it any way it came to me, but who may have passed away if your receiving an inheritance.....

BD, one line in your post says it all..."That's what makes the new tuning a breath of fresh air for me."
yep, anything I can do to make it "seem" different is a learning experience, and most importantly FUN!

If I had a 6 string, it would be "MY" breath of fresh air for a week, then I would case it, because all the stuff I normally do requires 4-5 strings at most, and it would be nothing but a show-off item to noodle on.


and BD, I loved the line "so I just slide around the neck" --- oh YA I have been there a million times when listening to songs before I jam them. Eventually you find the right area to play the riffs in, and do it

and you do KNOW, that we totally destroyed the topic of this thread, but isn't that like us to go off on a tangent

you wanna do something new and different....find a lefty bass and play it inverted for a month ( I said a month, cause in a day you'll want to have a few drinks and throw it in the garbage ) Me playing normal IS not too much of a challenge anymore, but in the earlier days, I would get sooooo frustrated. P.S. you all hold onto the E/B string, I hold on to the G string, which has a distinct advantage

You flip your strings when you flip a righty bass?

I saw where Jimmy Halsep plays his strings backward, have G on top & E on the bottom.

no BD, I leave them alone just like Jim Haslep/Jeff Schmidt....the lefty bass I play with the E on top ( normal )

just like Man Kidal ( a YngwieMalmsteen clone )