FAKE CHINESE KAHLERS

I told MadMike we would stop posting in his V440 thread and start here with the chinese faker Kahlers.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260959193435&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AWNA%3AMOTORS%3A1123

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110825971165?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

thanks mike ... youdaman.

i'm gonna do some research on this today ... the truth is out there!

When I look at that stuf the only visual difference I can see is that the string claws can't be adjusted for spacing (And the rollers can?! String angle/friction alarm!)

no Jim where does a 2410/7410 have the ability to adjust where you put in the strings, only the rollers are moveable...




it looks like someone just dropped a 2410 cam into a new frame....

you can be sure I'm gonna get one ordered next week when I get my check if they are still available, and if it IS just a partsmutt, but has no issues, I'm gonna but a couple more.

amimbari wrote:

no Jim where does a 2410/7410 have the ability to adjust where you put in the strings, only the rollers are moveable....

But Mike, the 7410 does permit moving the string claws side-to-side. It's only the 2410 that doesn't.

And to go along with what I think all of Us here already know, these have to be Chinese bootlegged Kahlers. How well they work is another interesting thing. Mike, you'll have to let us know if you do get one, and how it works. Personally, I'd rather spend the extra money on a real Kahler, since I would be afraid the Chinese version would break.

they do? wheres the 4 lockscrews that allow the string claws to move?
oh daymn maybe I got a Chinese bootleg also?
my black one looks the same as my old gold one.

You should be able to see them from the back. Little black dots where a allen wrench should go in to tighten and loosen them.

oh ya? I never saw anything to adjust them.

if they were adjustable the allen screws and holes would be right here right?
and if so you couldnt adjust them while the springs and that T are installed because the 2 center claws are behind it.



...there are none that I can see on this gold 7410 and I'll bet there are none on my black one.

Here is where the 7410's adjustment screws are, Mike:

oh wow ya since the one on my axe is black, never thought to notice cause my strings are always there, but the chinese unit is using the old cam so i guess it would be like buying a 2410 again.

they got enough fake chinese guitars and basses for 10 years and now they are catching up with the accessories.

It was just a matter of time.

well Irving, they DO copy cars...lol


A BYD coupé (left) and a Mercedes-Benz CLK (right).

Some BYD cars may look similar to those of other brands including Lexus,[24] Toyota,[25] Honda,[26] Mercedes Benz,[27] and Porsche.[28] For example, the BYD S8 bears similarity to the Mercedes CLK from the front, and the Renault Megane CC or third generation Chrysler Sebring convertible from the rear.[29]

An anoonymous staff member at Honda claimed that the BYD F3 was "a known copy" of the Toyota Corolla (with Honda Fit design cues).[30] Another model too, the BYD F1, has been described by an industry observer as "a clear copy" - this one of the Toyota Aygo.[31]

Domestic dealerships have been known to take advantage of this and replace the badging of BYD vehicles with those of other car manufacturers, including Toyota.[30] Micheal Austin, vice president of BYD America, has acknowledged the issue saying that the practices done by dealers (which are franchised) has made BYD "uncomfortable".[30] Even the US government has critiqued BYD's practices, with a WikiLeaked document from the US Consul-General to Guangzhou (Brian Goldbeck) referring to BYD's practice of copying in a document entitled "BYD seeks to 'Build Your Dreams' -- based on Someone Else's Designs".[30]

I sent this information to John/Wammi J, and here is his take on these:

"Well, they are not knockoffs, but they are not telling the truth when they say they are new. They could be being sold out the back door of the factory...they do that kind of thing over there. We can't do anything about it. They don't have the sliding string hooks. eBay won't help in removing them, either."

So, for what it's worth, there you have it.

ya that pretty much says it all.

I'd get one in a heartbeat if I actually owned a 4-string that I'd be willing to chop up.

well this must be getting more popular than anyone thinks because here is another seller selling what he says is a 7410, but it is not at least according to the picture:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Kahler-Hybrid-7410-Bass-Tremolo-CHROME-/390335285488?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item5ae1cbc8f0

Manufactured by Kahler International

Distributed by WD Music <<<< WD Music is the Chinese seller selling them for 99.00 except on his pics it says D+W Music...lol
what a bunch of ****.

As a follow-up to the X-Trem issue, I sent John another email:

"That's a shame they can get away with doing this. So does this mean that Kahler is producing Bass X-Trems? And since the X-Trem line is meant for guitar builders only, does that mean we will start seeing bass companies offering the X-Trem as an option?"

His reply:

"There are several bass makers that use them over there. I am doing one myself from over there after I get the guitars going."

To summarize:

Q. Are these legit Kahler bass trems?
A. Yes. The Kahler X-Trem bass tremolo is a legitimate item.

Q. Are they supposed to be sold separately from a bass?
A. No. Only the 2400 and 7410 lines are meant to be sold as a separate component.

Freaking Chinese. They have a complete interpretation of their own about the word copyright, they think it means the right to copy stuf.

But seriously, it is a shame that they take advantage of the Kahler company in such a way.

I wouldnt expect to see this for too long. I really think the only market is people who would want a "lawsuit" one (yes pleese) and people who are new to this and looking for a cheap kahler. Thats not a very big market for the effort expended.

And omg, all that shipping! I dont have patience to wait for a shipment from china, not to mention I dont want to send my money overseas.

Hey amimbari ... did you ever order one? Im still curious about quality.

Im still bent about the blem and its replacement I bought off ebay from an "authorized kahler dealer" at close to retail price, both missing springs. Talk about stuff going out the back door at kahler. I slammed them with negative feedback ... It was arkansas music btw. Do yourself a favor; spend the extra $20 and order a hybrid from wammi world.

no didn't order one, our band had to cancel the gig i was gonna use the money with, but we are playing 3 this month so ya I'll order one for sure and wait.
Remember Mike, I didn;'t have to wait too long for those MrMing preamps.

we did learn one thing here, it is not a copy, it is real, and although was not supposed to be meant for sale unless it is mounted to a bass of whatever chinese company bought them for and is now selling them separately, although highly unlikely, maybe the basses never were made and Kahler won't take them back so now they are selling them off as well as anything else they don't need?

only the DW music employees know.... ( anyone know chinese )?

i understand about the whole chinese thing ... i wouldnt want to sit on inventory either. if i can sell it off and make a few bucks, i would.

i use the "lawsuit" term as something like, they probably shouldnt be doing it or this was not the intention of the original contract (and apparently it isnt), not insomuch as an instance where they (the proverbial them) made 4000 gibson LP copies and shipped them to local music shops around tennessee and expected that gibson wouldnt come after them (because they have before).

but i would continue to wonder about what and how items come out of the kahler shop, who is doing this sideways stuff, what the tag of being an "authorized kahler dealer" really means, how that tag is awarded, if that tag is violated what kahler would do, etc. etc. etc.

kahler can do business however they please. i hope they continue to stay in business and are profitable because, and i dont think i'm alone on this message board, KAHLERS RULE. i'm not concerned about the quality or authenticity of a X trem (eric cheked the latter) and i think its great that they (them, those others, someone other than us) could make them available as a consumer option.

what i am concerned about is the consumers. buyer beware ... right? i'm still pretty miffed about receiving kahler(s) from an "authorized kahler dealer" missing parts and one obviously a blem catagorized and sold to me as "new". that is just lying and it either comes down to, the vendor just didnt know any better (and applying effort in calling themselves an "autorized dealer" leads me to believe that THEY DO KNOW BETTER or, as an authorized dealer SHOULD) or .......... they think we are "silly bass players who want a trem on their bass because they are stupid and dont know any better", minimal concern and getting blown off game that i have gotten repeatedly. i really doubt that this was what an "autorized kahler dealer" should do, how they got a hold of these blems and missing parts trems and if kahler would do anything about it.

so, i wonder if this x trem is going to be another instance. thats all.

we'll see when you (or someone else here knowledgeable) gets one in their hands.

I could relate this to my Crown XLS1500 I bought. Every site in the world has them for 399.95.
I bought mine for 278.00. I could have bought 10 for that price while he had them. When I registered it it was legit, but how can that be so cheap?
I cut all the middlemen/stores out of the equation.

Same with these.....

Wammi wants 175 for a 7410, even more for a 2410, but what does HE get them for in the first place?
So what he is making profit, that's normal business and who cares, but if I find someone overseas in China selling them for dealer/jobber cost, hell ya I'm gonna buy one. Not to buy 100 and resell them because that would be a violation of rights since I am in the USA and am not a Kahler dealer, but just a consumer.

and a 2410 cam with no stringclamp sliders? uh since when is that a factor?

Obviously, this opens up a whole new can of worms for all of us. Here's my two-cents.

MadMike, the likelihood of a lawsuit actually coming to fruition is nil, given the fact that it would take the U.S. Government to step in, and really, what power do they have to enforce a lawsuit against a Chinese company? The simple fact is that both the U.S. and China have much bigger problems to tackle before they got into a pissing war over Kahlers. It just isn't a big enough of a financial impact to matter to either government. True, this situation is something that should not be happening, but there is only so much that can be done.

Kahler, like many U.S. businesses, can elect to use any manufacturing resource they choose to. And unfortunately, given the fact that it is the almighty dollar that drives most business decisions, we have a serious problem with labor going overseas in order to increase profit margins.

This is why I have decided not to purchase an X-Trem from China. Part of why the U.S. is losing out to China is because they are the lowest bidder. I think that, in order to keep the American economy going, we have to buy American. Now, let me be REALLY clear on this point. I have nothing against China, and I don't honestly care if anyone else decides to go ahead with purchasing from Chinese sources. I'm only speaking from my own perspective here. What anyone else does is up to them, and I would NEVER insist that anyone do anything other than what they need to. In as much as I want to support the U.S. cause, I also understand that times are tough. People have to do what they have to do. Again, just my two-cents.

Mike, I used to be a Kahler reseller for John/Wammi J, and I can tell you that him selling a 7410 for only $175 isn't giving him a lot of profit. I'm not really at liberty to discuss the margin, but it ain't much. In fact, you would be shocked to learn just how little it is. But again, and PLEASE be clear on this, OK? I would not ever hold it against you if you purchased a Chinese Kahler. I understand more than most just how economics drive decisions.

Along those same lines, I also have a personal view. Kahler, and John/Wammi J have been really great to me over the years, and I would feel like I slapped them in the face if I were to support the illegal Chinese sales of their trems. It was absolutely devastating to me when Kahler dropped out of the tremolo market, and I am in no hurry to see that happen again. Anything I can do to support Kahler, I will do.

oh I know you wouldn't hate me or anyone else for purchasing a Chinese item.

well maybe if you and me were selling the same item and I was taking all your customers you would.

EricHaven wrote:

Obviously, this opens up a whole new can of worms for all of us. Here's my two-cents.

MadMike, the likelihood of a lawsuit actually coming to fruition is nil, given the fact that it would take the U.S. Government to step in, and really, what power do they have to enforce a lawsuit against a Chinese company? The simple fact is that both the U.S. and China have much bigger problems to tackle before they got into a pissing war over Kahlers. It just isn't a big enough of a financial impact to matter to either government. True, this situation is something that should not be happening, but there is only so much that can be done.

Kahler, like many U.S. businesses, can elect to use any manufacturing resource they choose to. And unfortunately, given the fact that it is the almighty dollar that drives most business decisions, we have a serious problem with labor going overseas in order to increase profit margins.

This is why I have decided not to purchase an X-Trem from China. Part of why the U.S. is losing out to China is because they are the lowest bidder. I think that, in order to keep the American economy going, we have to buy American. Now, let me be REALLY clear on this point. I have nothing against China, and I don't honestly care if anyone else decides to go ahead with purchasing from Chinese sources. I'm only speaking from my own perspective here. What anyone else does is up to them, and I would NEVER insist that anyone do anything other than what they need to. In as much as I want to support the U.S. cause, I also understand that times are tough. People have to do what they have to do. Again, just my two-cents.

Mike, I used to be a Kahler reseller for John/Wammi J, and I can tell you that him selling a 7410 for only $175 isn't giving him a lot of profit. I'm not really at liberty to discuss the margin, but it ain't much. In fact, you would be shocked to learn just how little it is. But again, and PLEASE be clear on this, OK? I would not ever hold it against you if you purchased a Chinese Kahler. I understand more than most just how economics drive decisions.

Along those same lines, I also have a personal view. Kahler, and John/Wammi J have been really great to me over the years, and I would feel like I slapped them in the face if I were to support the illegal Chinese sales of their trems. It was absolutely devastating to me when Kahler dropped out of the tremolo market, and I am in no hurry to see that happen again. Anything I can do to support Kahler, I will do.

eric,

+200K.

as someone who has worked (past tense) in american manufacturing and watching jobs disappear, "made in usa" and even more so, local, is a huge selling point for me. it is getting harder and harder to buy only american products.

it is a shame that even tho there are still some producing american companies, that overall, to compete with the low cost of foreign production the american quality has dropped and the cost gone up .... but, IMHO, its still better than mass produced chinese products.

i spent the extra $200 on my epi to get one that was produced in Tennessee. I played a few overseas built ones and the quality difference was noticeable to me ... only because i build and repair instruments. i dont think the average player could tell the difference in the pepsi challenge.

ok so you all thought this thread would die?

well when it comes to those chinese kahler copies perhaps, those sellers have not had any more since the first time the ad was put on ebay

BUT,

I'm always looking for a bargain so I found an old REAL 2410 for under 100 bucks shipped. It's dirty and will be disassembled to clean it up as the rollers are gunked up with dirt and hard to turn, but what can I say....


maybe I should give it to Eric for a wedding present for his next build?...lol

Maybe its the cork sniffing relic guitar refinishing geeks getting to me but ......

That kahler is AWESOME!

I should have it installed on my black lefty charvel AND use that j-40 out of the series10
then I would have 2 of the same thing

amimbari wrote:

ok so you all thought this thread would die?

well when it comes to those chinese kahler copies perhaps, those sellers have not had any more since the first time the ad was put on ebay

Just remember that these are not "fake" Kahlers per se. They are actual Kahler product that are made in China, and being sold out the back door.

amimbari wrote:

BUT,

I'm always looking for a bargain so I found an old REAL 2410 for under 100 bucks shipped. It's dirty and will be disassembled to clean it up as the rollers are gunked up with dirt and hard to turn, but what can I say....


maybe I should give it to Eric for a wedding present for his next build?...lol

Nah! No need, Bro! It's a nice sentiment, but I already have my Kahlers for the new basses being built.

madmike wrote:

thanks mike ... youdaman.

i'm gonna do some research on this today ... the truth is out there!

Let me put this to bed officially.... In the past..80's and 90's up until about 2005 the string hooks did not slide. This was the original design. In 2005 Mr Kahler designed sliding string hooks to better align the rollers to the hook. Now please understand we make 3 of every model. One is USA handmade PRO ala 2400 (starts with a 2), then there is a USA factory made one (7410) that starts with a 7. Then there is the same model that is made in China and ONLY comes on basses that are imported. By US law... these cannot be sold as new in the box because they are installed first overseas then shipped here to the USA. If you see these as "new" on ebay they are lying. It was pulled. That model is a 4410 and starts with a 4 and is the only bass trem we did not make with slider hooks. It was a cost thing as import stuff is always less nice than USA stuff. Just FYI: all parts are interchangeable for all model past and present. You can even put reverse saddles on a 2400 if you get a frame with the pin like a 2400 has. Its really just 2 frames we use for the 4, 5 and 6 models. reverse and forward style. Only the saddle rod is moved. FYI: There are no counterfeits at this time and era.......yet.


Wammi J.
Kahler USA

thank you so much Wammi-J for clearing up the confusion.
Explanations are easy when it comes from the right source.

True dat.

Thanks John for clearing this up.

I will also add that a fine tuning system and neck locking device for the bass tremolo is already drawn up and ready to go but on the back burner. Its a huge cost thing to get it done at this time because we have the new 7170 fulcrum tremolo for guitars under full swing at the moment and it will simply have to wait until there is time and capitol. But it will happen..eventually. I'm on it like a fly on cow sh*t. One thing you all can do is start a petition and show your support for this. You know.... squeeky wheels get the grease.

Wammi J.

Wammi J wrote:

I will also add that a fine tuning system and neck locking device for the bass tremolo is already drawn up and ready to go but on the back burner. Its a huge cost thing to get it done at this time because we have the new 7170 fulcrum tremolo for guitars under full swing at the moment and it will simply have to wait until there is time and capitol. But it will happen..eventually. I'm on it like a fly on cow sh*t. One thing you all can do is start a petition and show your support for this. You know.... squeeky wheels get the grease.

Wammi J.

OK Gang. You read it here direct from the source! Let's do this!