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 tremelos that will work with d tuners?

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hachikid



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PostSubject: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sat May 29, 2010 5:32 pm

hello. I'm new here, and I'm curious about something. I'm going to be building a Warmoth bass soon, but I have some questions. I want a d tuner, and I know they don't work with floating tremelos due to the change in tension when you flip the switch. so, are there any tremelos that are a bolt on without any recessing or routing going on? isn't it because the tremelos are floating is why the change in tension screws them up? if so, it seems like if I had a tremelo that only went one way that it would work. or does this not exist?
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sat May 29, 2010 10:14 pm

I think you can install/set up a Hipshot so that it isn't floating. I'm not sure, though.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sat May 29, 2010 11:15 pm

This has come up many, many times, and every time the rest of the board disagrees with me, but there is nothing wrong with using a detuner with a trem. Just set the detuner to drop slightly sharp of D. Then the rest of the strings will go out of tune less. Unless you have perfect pitch and/or are massively anal retentive about tuning (and I mean totally OCD, like even knowing it's out of tune flips you out, because you really won't notice a difference unless you have perfect pitch), it'll be good enough for playing live. I still wouldn't recommend it for recording though.
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hachikid



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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sun May 30, 2010 9:27 am

well, is the reason that it goes sharp is because there is space for the bridge to allow it to "pull up"? and if so, if there was a way to stop it from raising the pitch, would there be tuning problems if I flipped the d-tuner switch?
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Kugelspot

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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sun May 30, 2010 11:28 am

hachikid wrote:
well, is the reason that it goes sharp is because there is space for the bridge to allow it to "pull up"? and if so, if there was a way to stop it from raising the pitch, would there be tuning problems if I flipped the d-tuner switch?

I believe it would, but I have no idea how you'd do that with a Hipshot.
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hachikid



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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sun May 30, 2010 11:37 am

unless there is a tremelo that is flat mount with no routing necessary, I was more thinking about going with the Kahler. it seems like a better system.
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EricHaven
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sun May 30, 2010 1:54 pm

Greetings Hachikid! Welcome to BTF!

As Kugelspot indicated, many players do have the problem of going out of tune when flipping a detuner, but he does have a good solution in setting the detuner slightly sharp of D. And again, as he indicated, this will work fine for live, but recording is another matter, since recording always picks up any tuning problems.

You can definitely set a Kahler to where it will only drop notes and not float, and I think you can do the same with a Hipshot. As you observed, provided the trem has no backwards movement room, then the detuner should have no effect on the tuning whatsoever. Of course, this means that you will only be able to drop notes, and not pull up on them, but I'm not a fan of pulling up on trems anyways, so this works fine for me.

Bear in mind that having a trem, or any tuning changer for that matter, will affect how you approach the instrument. It's all about learning how to make it all balance out and work, so it's not anything to be scared of. You simply have to work it in properly.

As far as better vs worse, that's up to individual opinion. We have players here that use Kahlers and love them, and those the use Hipshots and love them. But from the standpoint of ease of installing, the Kahler is definitely the way to go.

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hachikid



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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sun May 30, 2010 2:25 pm

hey Eric, thank you. I've seen some videos of you on youtube before. great technique! about the issue at hand, though, would I be able to just mount ithe Kahler completely flat? as in no routing? this should allow for no space to pull up on it. the bass will have jumbo frets, anyway, so I will be able to bend up without a problem. I just think it'd be cool to have a little bit of vibrato when I'm playing chords and things like that. I'd rather have a d tuner than be able to pull up on the bar.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sun May 30, 2010 9:59 pm

Thanks, Hachikid! Wink

There's a couple of things to consider here. I'll try to be thorough without being too wordy.

Since the springs hang below the level of the frame, there is no possible way to install a Kahler without routing. The only tremolo that does not require routing would be a Bigsby, and since they are notorious for going out of tune, I don't think you want to go that way.

And by mouting the Kahler flat, I am assuming you are of the belief that the travel of the bar action is determined by how flush the trem is in the body, which it isn't. The bar travel, that is, whether the bar will float, or only travel down, is determined by the cam set crew that is located right in the middle of the string claw. The more you tighten this screw, the less the bar will be able to be pulled up. It makes no difference whether you simply mount the trem flat on the surface, or have it countersuck into the body. It is up to the cam set screw to determine how far your Kahler will drop, or pull up, and nothing more.

And about countersinking. Most basses have fretboard profiles that if you simply mount a Kahler flat, you won't be able to lower your action to a playable level. The reason for this is is that since the trem is sitting so high on the body that the strings bottom out on the intonation adjustment screws as you try to lower them down enough. In the majority of basses, you have to countersink the trem to be able to get your action down enough to be comfortable. True, it does take a little more routing to do this, but the results are well worth the extra effort.

So, short and sweet. Yes, you have to route the body. No, how flat it sits does not govern whether it will pull up at all. Yes, not only do you need the routing, but countersinking is essential for the vast majority of basses.

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Barklessdog

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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:55 am

I would think heavy gauge strings would perform / sound better ?
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:27 pm

i'm gonna build a bass with a trem ...

and a d tuner .....

and a guitar amp in it ......

with some on board distortion and wah .......

and a weed whacker motor on it .........

and a blender for margaritas ........

and a salsa dispenser so you put the salsa in the top and when you push the button ... it comes out the bottom!

oh yeah ... gotta have that.

i've only seen two players actually utililize using a drop tuner mid song. one is billy sheehan. the other is some solo jazz cat with a zon model bass that is a totally rediculous awesome bassist.

i've never needed to drop tune during any song. i tune to drop d and if i need to hit a d or d sharp in a song thats written in e tuning, its there. if were gonna play songs that are written in drop c (like black sabbath) or some nonsence, we just change the key to one that sounds right for us.

if you wanna fart and fiddle around with a drop tuner on a bass with a trem, more power to ya. personally, i just find it one more distracting thing that isnt necessary that is just gonna disrupt the accuracy that i bothered to set my trem up with. my basses are set up, intonate, bow and action for being tuned to drop d. if i need to tune to e or drop to c ... i'll set up another bass and grab it when i need it. i hate it when someone grabs my bass and tunes the top string to e. you might as well pull my little sisters hair.

anyhow ... if your so inclined .... go for it! i try to make things that arent supposed to work, work ... but this just isnt one of them.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:12 pm

I believe that the jazz player with the Zon you mentioned must be Michael Manring, since he has Zon customize his basses to have detuners on all the keys. I have seen him play in videos, and he does some incredible things on his bass, including changing the tuning range of the bass on the fly in the middle of a song.

Actually, Michael Manring walked right past us at the Oakland Zoo in California back in 2007. He was there with his son, and they were walking right by us when I looked up. He had his hair back in a ponytail, and he was wearing a Bass Player Magazine cap. There was no doubt in my mind it was him, and I fought to urge to talk to him, since he was just there at the zoo with his kid.

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Kugelspot

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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:16 pm

madmike wrote:
i've only seen two players actually utililize using a drop tuner mid song. one is billy sheehan. the other is some solo jazz cat with a zon model bass that is a totally rediculous awesome bassist.

Drop tuning mid song isn't really the reason (although I've done that). What it's really great for is drop tuning between songs live.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:12 am

just tune to DGCF, or get a heavy gauge string set file out the nut for the heavy strings and tune to BEAD and call it a day like MMike said Wink

I say this as a free alternative to a hipshot because to me and the many years I have been playing in DGCF or EADG, tuning DADG ( drop-d ) get's confusing to me over straight tuning due to remembering that now ONLY the E string is 2 frets different to produce the same note.

but that's me, your mileage may vary Like a Star @ heaven
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EricHaven
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:51 am

Since our original music is in so many low tunings, I've had to work at getting used to playing with my low string being either an E, D, or B. And I have to say that it gets easier the more I do this. Once in a while, I get crossed up, but it is starting to make more sense.

I still think that one day I might just go with a sixer tuned B-D-E-A-D-G.

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Chowderboots

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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Thu Jun 03, 2010 4:35 pm

Your idea for that six stringer is intriguing. It's hard for me to imagine what it would be like going from the B to the E...or the low D to the B. It would take some getting used to.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:46 am

between songs live??? ... i dont think i've ever played a gig where i've brought less than 2 basses. our current set has me utilizing the tone from 2 separate basses ... and sometimes i just cant get the tone right from one or the other so i'll switch and just use that for the whole set.

so switching basses from song to song on stage seems like less an issue to me than what i'de go thru to get a hipshot to work correctly.

... and i spend enuff time fiddeling around with preamps, speakers, effects and crossovers. i just dont have the time for installing something else.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:49 am

... but that zon bass that michael manring plays is really friggin cool!

thanx eric ... i couldnt remember his name for the life of me. you shudda just walked up to him and said "hi!" just because someone is an accomplished musician, does it make them void of being someone you can say hello to???
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:07 am

Well true, but one thing I have learned is that famous people need their time out of the spotlight. True, Michael Manring isn't someone likely to be mobbed on the streets, so I'm sure he isn't one who hides from everyone. But he was just there at the zoo with his son enjoying his day, and I didn't want to disrupt that. Besides, what would it have proved? I would have told him that he's awesome (which I am sure he already knows), maybe gotten an autograph and a picture, and that would have been it. I was happy just to have him walk past us that day.

Obviously, Michael is a resident of the San Francisco Bay Area of California, and Zon basses are made there as well. The facility is located just a couple miles from where I used to work in Redwood City, and our UPS driver used to pick up their shipments just before coming to pick up ours. I used to see all of these boxes from Zon in the back of the UPS truck, and even the driver used to tease me about it, saying "I'll bet you'd love for me to accidentally "lose" one of these boxes here!" Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:41 am

paparazzi !!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:14 am

i catch your drift eric.

i think henry rollins put it the best. he sez their are 2 kinds of fans ... ones that come up to him, say hi, thank him for sharing his talent with us and leave him alone. the others are those who come up to him, drool their feelings of how awesome they think he is all over him, demand his acknowledgement, seek some kinda validation from him, idolize him and put him on the pedistal and make some feeble attempt to act like they are "friends" with him now.

i've done the first with henry ... and he bought me a beer. it was nice meeting him on a human being level and we me just as that ... 2 human beings.

i've seen people do the second to him (right after my interaction with him) and i was suprised he didnt eat their face off. i mean, from an outside perspective, those people looked quite pathetic. not anyone i would want comming up to me and doing something like ... talking to me. he bummed on them and soon got up and walked out of the resturant with terrel biggs.

now ... you with mike ... his son was there. that was respectful that you did that.
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PostSubject: Re: tremelos that will work with d tuners?   Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:12 am

I know Mike it was kinda a tease for Eric, but when your famous, you generally expect autograph hounds, and it is rare and thankful to know your in public and nobody is hounding you Smile
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