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 To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?

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Jim



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PostSubject: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:49 am

Sorry I am suddenly flooding the forum with posts, but I have decided that I would like to play a more active role. (And I have holiday right now, so I have nothing on my hands.)

Now I am going to try to explain what I was thinking about right now:

1. We would all (or at least most of us) like a transtrem.
Why?
1.1 Because it can transpose the complete bass.
Is there no alternative?
1.2 No
Why not?
1.3 No one has built an alternative
Can i build one?
1.4 dont know, how does it work?

2. How does a transtrem work?
It lets for a certain amount of tremolo arm travel detune all the strings by the same amount of semitones.
2.1 How does it do that?
It lets you set up the distance of the point were the string is clamped to the turning axis of the tremolo (radius)

1.4 + 2 = 3 (actually it is 3.4 but I'm feeling silly right now)
3. How do you build your own transtrem?
You have to make a tremolo (or adjust a existing one) so you can adjust the radius.
3.1 How do I do that?
Dont know (thinking..... searching on the web)

4. Search on the web for a bass part that lets you clamp the string ball end, and still adjust its position.
4.1 Is there such a thing?
Yes there is (maybe there are multiple options, I thought of this one, if you think of something better please tell me!)
4.2 What is it Jim?
It is A TUNING BRIDGE FOR A HEADLESS BASS

5. Now I (or we, please help me) have to think about a way to make a new tremolo, (or adjust a existing one by attaching a string clamping system (like the TUNING BRIDGE FOR A HEADLESS BASS) to the cam), (In my humble opinion a hipshot tremolo would work best because there is quite much room on the sustain block (where sthe springs are attached (only on the other side)) to mount the headless bass tuners, opinions please!)

So please tell me, is this idea:
A To crazy to work! or
B So crazy it might just work!



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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:23 am

hey jim ... too much coffee? Shocked drunken jocolor

furreal, furreal, i think thats cool that there are some pople in the world who think about the engineering of such things.

just wanted to post my .02 to you ... so maybe my experience can be of some use to you, can assist in your design, save you unnecessary hours of CAD design or money or lead to a better design.

for reference, when I mention I hit the trem ... I use kahlers, as so far in my adventures, I have found them to be the best as far as installation, acceptable fit on more basses, intonation, cost and performance. the thing i dont like about them is the roller saddle manifolds ... but it can be worked around. the kahler cam position is just a straight line so, it doesnt have anything like a transposting feature.

i've found hipshots to require too much routing to install, expensive, have more machine slop (wiggle) and dont stay in tune as well (but that may have been the install on the ones i've tried). i've never bought one and never installed one. i just sold a bass with a bach trem and was glad to see it go. a floating claw design like a floyd rose or a hipshot, it never stayed in tune and broke strings constantly. this thing had knobs at the back of the cam that screwed down on top of the string in front of the ball. was this an attempt at transposition? "the knobs do nothing!" junk. i want to try this guys design, linear trem and I really want to try a jens ritter design as well ... but jens wont sell one unless its on a ritter bass ... and i'de really like to have a ritter bass BB1

the TT transposing feature is a great concept. lemme break it down in terms that i understand as far as its physics and what its benefit is ... understand, i dont have one (like $2000 for one ... i'de buy a wal) and i dont really understand how the position of the claw is relative to what tension is on what string relative to each string's true tuning thru a bend ... it just does and its been proven that it works ... thats not my point.

now, as a bass trem user, in regards to what the TT does ...........

i play a 4 string tuned to drop D (D,A,D,G) so, with the A string held in the 5th fret position and the G @ the 7th, strum, ill have the strings ring out at drop D, standard D on the A, standard D open and one octave up D on the G .... A d CHORD! chacha! (the women love it). playing in drop D and having this much power at my disposal, my song writing revolves around that D, A and G (more crazy bass chords that I use and where i dive bomb the most) and its in the bass chords where the TT's abilities come into play.........

one song I wrote, I hit this whole on D chord for a breakdown before the guitar solo comes in and dive bomb on the trem. "WWWWHHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!" Given enuff power (my rig is 1200W) and enuff ability to reproduce frequencies below 30Hz, its just ALMOST enuff to make anyone standing in a 40ft radius in front of my cabs to poop their pants. Ive had people tell me they can feel it in their innards and makes their head swirl ... awesome!

now ... thru the range of the divebomb, i've never checked on a digital tuner ... or if its possible to ... to find out if the strings maintain consistency with one another thru the range of the drop in key. so lets say, the chord is in D and the bottom of the divebomb is A ... are all the strings ringing in A in their perspective octaves at the bottom of the dive? i dunno. i really highly doubt it.

is this transposing trick the thing i need to get from ALMOST making people drop a load in their pants to actually doing it? ew. if so, I would have found, "the ever elusive BROWN NOTE!"

would the women notice the difference bring them to a new level of heightened orgas ..... ????? allright, too far.

so, now lets talk about the necessity of bass players tremming on chords.

altho neat, and me putting together bands just specifically to play the music that i write to cater to all my bass nonsense .... guitar players hate bass chords. maybe hate is a strong word. maybe its just that bass players find them and lack diciprine and walk all over a song with it. i've been told several times that i'm a failed guitar player playing bass but i just cant let it go and asked, why dont i just play guitar ... along with all the other stuff that people say to us bass trem users. i am currently learning more guitar, but i will still play a bass with a trem on it and use way too much effects ... eh, its my thing.

point is #1 and #2

#1 thru the range of tremmed notes in a chord on a bass, would the difference of it being properly transposed be noticeable? noticeable only on recordings? noticeable only when everyone messes their drawers? noticeable to where its absolutely worth the extra $1000 for a TT or the hours of designing, engineering and finding someone to (if required) produce such a thing?

#2 would what was re engineered and produced be any better than a kahler? cost? space it takes up on the bass top (because a kahler takes a lot with a big footprint and the one advantage that i find with the hipshot)?

and D) do bass players trem enuff chords to make it worth it? i think a guitar player (like EVH) iddid be worth a million bucks ... they trem chords all the time. so i guess maybe i'm posing a question to the other bass tremmers on this board ...................

~ do you trem more chords or notes?

~ if you trem chords, would the transposition thru the motion be noticeable and worth it to you?

please dont think that i'm bumming on this idea. TT's fascinate me and seem like great and extremely well engineered systems ... they are just rare, expensive and elusive. transposition noticeable and/or worth it or not ... they are probably just really great trems and blow other away (i would hope so for $1000 more). if it was available and affordable, i would definitely find my way to trying one out as i am extremely curious, nosy and am always looking for better and want to encourage those who think they can do better.

so make one!

good luck.
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:44 pm

MadMike makes a LOT of great points on the subject. And, for what it's worth Jim, here are my two cents. OK....it's more like my two-hundred cents, but bear with me. I think you'll like what you read.

Jim wrote:
1. We would all (or at least most of us) like a transtrem. Why?

I can't tell you why anyone else would want one. Only why I would. Simply put, the bass TransTrem is the only example of any bass trem that I know of that is close to being a fully-locking system.

Jim wrote:
2. How does a transtrem work?

I am not completely certain, but I believe that the whammy aspect of the bass TransTrem was a secondary consideration. "What??? Blasphemy!!!" I can hear it already. Let me explain. The original point of the TransTrem was so that you could change to alternate tunings on the fly. MadMike, I believe you already touched on this point. It was only natural that the function of the TransTrem also translate into whammy functions. But remember that you can change the tuning range, and then lock the arm into place to hold the alternate tuning. To bypass the tuning-change, simply don't lock the arm. And, as an added bonus, the whammy function of the TransTrem made it so the strings move in tuned unison over the drop or raise range, as opposed to a standard tremolo which takes all of the strings out of tune to each other during the range of travel.


Jim wrote:
1.4 + 2 = 3 (actually it is 3.4 but I'm feeling silly right now)

I hope you realize that we here at BTF encourage sillyness. Laughing

Jim wrote:
3. How do you build your own transtrem?

Not a clue. But I do know that the design is based upon being able to control the amount of travel of the individual strings. The TransTrem synchronizes the individual ranges of travel so that they all move together in tune to each other. But how they managed to do this, again, I honestly haven't a clue.

Jim wrote:
3.1 How do I do that?

See above.

Jim wrote:
4.1 Is there such a thing?

To my knowledge, and the collective knowledge of Everyone here, no. The only source that I can think of would be in the minds of the wizards at Steinberger. And yes, they will make one for you as a custom build. But it will cost you $10,000. That is not an exaggeration, or a joke. That is directly from Ned Steinberger himself. $10,000 for a bass TransTrem.

Jim wrote:
5. Now I (or we, please help me) have to think about a way to make a new tremolo, (or adjust a existing one by attaching a string clamping system (like the TUNING BRIDGE FOR A HEADLESS BASS) to the cam), (In my humble opinion a hipshot tremolo would work best because there is quite much room on the sustain block (where sthe springs are attached (only on the other side)) to mount the headless bass tuners, opinions please!)

AHHH!!!! Now you're talking my language! Wink That is precisely what I plan to do in the next few months! I have my eye on some Steinberger bridges that feature the tuners, and my plan is to do exactly as you have prescribed. Attaching one to a fulcrum pivot system.

Here is one I have been watching on eBay. Note that this is for a fiver, but they are also available in the standard four-string design:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230749740150?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2661#ht_500wt_969

Fastening one of these onto a block with springs would be a cinch. Drill a hole for an arm, and viola'!

So now we get to the subject of the top lock. I have literally spent hours on the web scouring for someone that makes either a locking bass nut, or a roller bass nut. No luck. I have also sent countless emails to several different parts companies asking about both, and I have gotten responses ranging from "we have never seen such a thing" to "we can build one for you, and it will cost you an arm and a leg". But lookee here Kiddies. I am thinking this might be on the right path:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/320854676213?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2661#ht_690wt_1185

(In my best Rod Serling voice) "Picture, if you will". Wink Taking such a piece, and somehow incorporating it into a bass nut.

Opinions?





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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:53 pm

its almost 10 pm and i still gotta quote for an install to do.

i'll muttle thru this tomorrow and figure something out. i need a vector based program like autocad to design some stuff on. my computer crashed and i lost corel. i've been reduced to scribbling on legal pads. doh!
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:27 am

Eric, I think we had quite the same idea. And I have to say I think we both understand the mechanism of the transtrem quite well. If you want to know how it works Mike, I'll explain it to you in detail (I am after all quite the physics geek). I was thinking about quite much the same mechanis as you Eric, I was thinking about locking tuners (sperzel) and a teflon nut in stead of the locknut you suggested (which seems to me as cuite a good if not even better alternative) and Individual string bridges, like this:
Individual string bridges

I have to think and search on the physical theory about string tuning, since this will be important for the distance between the anchoring point of the string and the turning point of the cam. An also for the needed travel of the anchoring point.

Really great that someone else is thinking about making quite the same thing! We'll keep in touch about the idea and progress of our plans!
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:15 am

Jim wrote:
If you want to know how it works Mike, I'll explain it to you in detail (I am after all quite the physics geek).

i get it ... the strings travel different distances during a bend so they stay in tune with each other thru the range. of a great value for a guitar player tremming chords.

i think you misinterpreted my post that i'm trying to shoot holes in it ... i'm not. i'm all about better designs.

when investors look at investing in a new idea, they look at it along the lines of it being something of marketable value. i question the necessity and value of strings staying in tune with each other thru a bend in regards to bass playing (we really dont play or trem chords) ... or if we, you, them, would be able to tell the difference at all. this weighed in with ... how much would the thing cost. $1000+ like the TT? i mean ... they are hard to get because they didnt make a lot of them.

but no ... design ... engineer ... go mad scientist ... try all sortsa stuff.

Jim wrote:
I have to think and search on the physical theory about string tuning, since this will be important for the distance between the anchoring point of the string and the turning point of the cam. An also for the needed travel of the anchoring point.

again ... how it works.

i'm really interested in that post that someone put up with the guy that made the midi saddles for the kahler. this is what i was thinking ... not the saddles, re engineering the cam on the kahler. it just seems a redesign on something that already works great would be a good, practical idea.

but i do understand the value of, "this is MY trem."

a standard kahler cam is in a straight line; anchoring all the ball ends at the same radius around the cam's axis. all the strings travel the same distance thru the range ... + or - a few .0001" for compensation of string diameter.

first of all ... the physical theory of sting tuning and the distance required to achieve this perfect tuning, string to string, thru the range ...

i have no idea how to determine what this should be. its a tension thing obviously. the only way i could embark upon such an endeavor is with trial and error and or a large scale model with scales ... OMG! ... that just sounds crazy. sounds like stuff that i would build, spend endless hours in the basement, my beard would grow down to my naval, i go crazy and my wife leaves me. on paper ... it sounds like it would involve some calculus.

ha!

but heres what i was thinking of the mechanics .........

its about the radius around the fulcrum of the cam. if the radius point, where the claw holds the ball end of the string, is further away than that point of another string, then the one that is further would travel more distance .... right?

re designing how the claw is mounted to the cam and the distance each claw travels seems like it would be the key to me .........

or am i just thinking too simple about it?

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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:45 am

Mike I've spent most of this afternoon doing crazy calculations! It is really messed up. I think I figured it out, but I'll have to calculate what the travel would be! They are weird difficult calculations, I amazed myself that I took the time of even trying. When I find a decent way of explaining this stuf to you I'll send it, but currently I have a two pages word document with calculations if you want them. This is soms crazy stuff........... I wonder if Ned went through the same misery as I did this afternoon Shocked tongue

Update:

Just checked it, I think my calculations seem to be right. I can now calculate what the radius needs to be of all the other strings when I know the radius of one string.
The information I have to know for that is:
Linear density of the string (how much kilogram one meter of string weighs (yes the evil dutch guy with his metrics! Twisted Evil )
Length of the open string in meters
Frequency of the open string in Hertz

That's it, my work here is done, I can now die peacefully and go to heaven. I've layed the theoretical basis for a transtrem Shocked

I think I'm just going to wait for my nobel prize now...............
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:49 am

as flava flave would exclaim ..........

"whaaaaaaaaaaaaw!"

bit of a geek ... you werent kiddin.

here, i'll do my part. a bass is generally 34" scale.

34 inch = 0.863 6 meter

now, you need to take into account the +- of the intonation.

the whole just keeps getting deeper, doesnt it?

yeah, ide like to see the word documents. thanks.

PM'ed .........
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:31 pm

i wish i could find that youtube video of the guy who had drop tuners on all his strings individually ON the BRIDGE.
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:05 pm

I'm not totally certain Mike, but I strongly suspect you mean Michael Manring:



Jim, you and I, along with MadMike, definitely are on the same path here, and I look forward to hearing more of both of your ideas.

Again, I'm after having a locking system for bass, and not so much the transposing thing. In the next couple of months, my guitarist Andy and I are going to put together some sort of locking bass tremolo using the aforementioned Steinberger parts. I will keep ya'll informed when we begin the project, and how it turns out. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:05 am

ya thats the video rabbit
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:01 am

i just went thru jim's calculations ........

and my brain hurts.

i admit, i had to chek the reference link at the bottom and look up some vocabulary. i had one year of physics in high school, back when we were still using stone tablet and chisel to take notes and an abacus if we were lucky.

from what i understand, yes, these are the physics that are involved in transposing each string for proper tune with each other in the trem range.

now ... and the challenge with the way that i go about engineering things, applying these physics to an actual trem. having the math is just a guide and gives me an idea of the possible necessary specs, but here in the real world theres usually more to it, but if i dont physically do it, i wont know for sure.

... how do i go about physically building a doo dad to test these calculations?

ya build it. trial and error. and i will start on that endeavor. personally, i think it would be more practical (and affordable) to start with the basic kahler design and re - engineer the cam ... and that will be my part in this experimentation.

heres the first hurdle to overcome ... besides building it and putting it on a bass (i gotta find a candidate for experimentation ... i just sold a bunch of basses. i only have 3 now and they dont meet the criteria of being "experimental") ... how am i gonna test such a concept?

1 starting with a digital tuner(s) obviously.
2 needing a separate pickup for each string to isolate the frequencies of each string thru the range.
3 the range being a variable over a period of time, to compare the two (or more, consisting of a chord) i think using a computer program with the data monitored over the range / time would be necessary ... as the end bend of an arm and motion thru the range (its end) and the length of time is physically impossible to do. (i still dont think that the transposition vs. not transposed can be determined (or at least without any accuracy) with the human ear; not to mention comparing data).

make sense?

here i go ........................

geek
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:14 am

Mike, I think you are making your test setup way to difficult! Isn't it easier to go instead of the separate pickup technique with a "arm travel locker".
I don't know how to call it. I can explain what I mean I think!
To test this trem; bend a string up/down a certain amount of semitones.
Measure your arm travel while doing this.
Build a thing (could be piece of string or a block on the bass) that lets you bend your trem just as far every time.
Bend you trem this far every time and adjust your radius of the other strings so they go out of tune the equal amount of semitones.
Next you're finished; test your transposing trem (best with octaves to check on ear)

Am I right?
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Thu May 31, 2012 3:47 pm

I kept thinking about the trans trem idea, and I stumbled on a small problem.

Ned steinberger made his strings to custom gauges. He did this to that the saddle adjustment on the tremolo bridge would be small. Now since these "calibrated strings" as they were called don't exist anymore (at least not for bass), this becomes a slight issue. It is not a big problem, it only causes for the saddle travel for our home made trans trem to be required bigger (I don't know how big, but we have to keep bigger margins).
I think that when I look at my calculations I can find a way to reduce this effect to a minimum. It probably can be dealt with best with strings with (about) equal tension (as I think this is what calibrated means) but I have to check this in my trans trem formula, which I will do soon.
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:39 am

the TB'ers love the circle-K strings you can order whatever size per string you want. the site has the tensions and gauges listed so you know what you get for the application.
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:12 am

Thank you animbari, I just checked out the site, and it looks great, so many choices about bass string gauges.
Any appinion on how they work on a trem?
I'm going to check some of the talkbass forum members oppinions on them now!

This does solve my problem for the most, even selecting gauges that give even tension won't make them exactly calibrated but it comes close!

EDIT I've noticed that the lower strings from Circle K Strings are tapered at the bridge end (not bare core, but slightly thinner), is this a issue with trem use?


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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:17 am

no sorry Jim I never tried them. the TB'ers have a lot of posts all over the place about them so I'm sure someone ( or 50 ) people will tell you what they think..trem use? I dunno....
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PostSubject: Re: To crazy to work? OR So crazy it might just work?   Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:41 am

I just looked into some calculations I did on the Trans trem mechanism, and the even string tension over all strings should indeed greatly reduce the required difference in radius from the ball end to the turning point of the trem.

Wich brings me to my next point, does someone have a bass with a tremolo on which they are willing to try the following:

1. Buy strings with even tension from circle K.
2. Put them on the tremolo
3. Put on your tuner.
4. Do a divebomb or pull up of X semitones on a string.
5. Find a way of determining in what position your trem arm is and reproducing that position (maybe double sided tape and a block to put under it after your pull up).

6. Repeat proces for all strings.
7. Compare the notes you get from all strings (ideally this should be about the same for all strings)

8. Tell me about the data! Cool

(NOTE: Strings with even tension have to be found on the tension chart from circle K, what they sell as EVEN TENSION is in fact not real even, but just MORE EVEN then regular tension.)
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