Some New Toys!

It's exciting to watch things arrive in the mail!

My new Sansamp preamps (which BTW sound AMAZING):



The very first outlines of what will become "The Twins". Andy is building me a four and a fiver per my specs, and they will be identical expect for the string count:



New DiMarzio D Activator pickups. Great reviews, ultra hot specs, and the brand I still love. I got the seven for the four-banger, and the eight for the fiver:



And of course (you really didn't expect me to forget the most important parts now, did you? ), my new Kahler 7410 and 7415:



I also now have all of the ingredients for my pedalboard, but I still have to lash it all down.

I am also waiting for my DOD G7, and my Marshall 8x10 cabinet, but those should be here any day now.

More pics, and eventually videos, to follow soon!

Comin together ... looks awesome!

Cant wait to see the new basses. Chek out guitar reranch for nitro lacquer finishes. The best I found yet.

wow 650.00 in just the preamps. I wish I had that kinda cash to toss in the rig
time to join another band for more "gear" cash....lol

Can't wait to see them completed.

I'm really curious how your bases are going to work out! I think you've got some great parts there. Did you previously own bases with guitar pickups? And so yes how did they sound, so no why did you choose to use them now?

i like how we rip the SA logo off the grill. i did too. it leaves that nasty foam adhesive behind thats impossible to get off ... i sandblasted and repainted my grill.

Thanks, Guys!

madmike wrote:

I like how we rip the SA logo off the grill. I did too.

Well, the SA 2x15 is about to get replaced with my new Marshall 8x10 once it arrives. The SA will probably wind up in our recording studio.

But the SA logo will remain off the cabinet!

amimbari wrote:

Wow 650.00 in just the preamps. I wish I had that kinda cash to toss in the rig

I hear you, Mike. If it makes any difference, I am only able to do this now due to a very small inheritance that I qualified for with the death of my dad, and my grandparents. I won't lie to you. It is nice to be able to do these things, but it came at an awful price. I would much rather that you (and Everyone else) get that kind of capital through less-devastating means.

Jim wrote:

Did you previously own bases with guitar pickups? And so yes how did they sound, so no why did you choose to use them now?

Whew! OK....here goes....bear with me here.

In the past, I used pretty much only DiMarzio Model P's and J's. They worked fairly well for my distortion channel, but I always felt like they could have had a little more power. So after John from Raven told me about his DiMarzio X2N, I had to try it out. The difference was astounding! So when my guitarist Andy installed my Kahler and EMG pickup (for my low/clean channel) into my Davison fiver, he also sold me one of his custom made eight-string guitar humbuckers that made its way into my distortion channel. His was modeled after the Seymour Duncan Invader, but when we started building my new basses, I needed a pickup spaced for a four (the seven-string pickup) and a fiver (the eight-string pickup). The DiMarzio D Activator specs out close to the Invader, and it comes in a seven and an eight-string version. So they are almost identical. I would have possibly gone with the Invader, but it does not appear they make an eight-string version.

In fact, the new basses will be twins in every single aspect, except for the string count. I wanted them to be electronically identical, so I can switch between them without having to change my tonal parameters. This is why I chose the DiMarzios.

One difference is that I am going to put in (yes, yes, I know....we've waxed poetic about this in the past, but I'm willing to give it a go) a Hipshot Detuner for the E string of the four, since I want to be able to access a low D. It might take a little balancing act against the Kahler, but I'm going to at least try.

Other than that, both will have the exact, same solid maple body and headstock (with neck-through design reinforced with walnut), both will be solid gloss black, EMG's and the DiMarzio D Activators, and chrome Kahlers.

madmike wrote:

I like how we rip the SA logo off the grill. I did too.

EricHaven wrote:

Well, the SA 2x15 is about to get replaced with my new Marshall 8x10 once it arrives. The SA will probably wind up in our recording studio.

But the SA logo will remain off the cabinet!

well since I bought my SA off of you with it already off, I had no choice
FUNNY thing was, months ago I was at a show and someone instantly recognized it.


and oh ya.....EBAY YOUR QSC and buy a CrownDrivecore...

I reckon I'll do just that, Mike!

You should get amazing sustain & harmonics with the construction & woods. What kind of fingerboards & frets?

Barklessdog wrote:

You should get amazing sustain & harmonics with the construction & woods. What kind of fingerboards & frets?

These will be neck-through basses made mostly of maple. I think we decided on ebony boards. As far as the frets go, I am not sure. I am leaving that in the very capable hands of Andy. He told me today that he ordered the fret wire, but I did not think to ask him the particulars. But I've played on other basses that he has built, and I loved the frets on them, so I trust they will be really nice.

He showed me the section of maple he got for the bodies, and it is gorgeous! I have a few pictures of the wood that I will post here soon.

Please do. Not to concerned about weight?

I love my Maple RD but it weighs a ton.

Yeah, they will be a little heavier than what I'm used to, but I think the tonal results will offset any discomfort issues. At least, I hope so!

Another new toy just arrived today! My new Marshall 8x10 cabinet! I tested it out today....and Man....I am literally creating the bass rig from Hell!

Our next gig is tomorrow night, and I get to test everything out in front of a crowd. I am planning on seeing folks carrying out various body parts in bags!

I have to apologize for not posting more pics of the new basses, but I at least wanted to give an update. Part of the problem is that they are coming together so quickly, I hardly have a chance to capture the process!

I was at the studio today, and Andy brought me into the shop to show me how things are going. The necks are are glued together, with the larger strips of light maple being accented with the darker strips of....oh crap....was it mahogany? Walnut? I can't remember! But, at any rate, the necks look GORGEOUS! He also has the headstock wings attached.

The body wings have also been cut, and he had them laying alongside the neck (remember, these are neck-through basses), and they look amazing.

We have opted for the fret markers to be bass clefs, and we are working on a Celtic wolf design for the headstock.

I will try to remember to bring our camera to practice this Thursday so I can show you Guys some newer pics.

Not sure of your body thickness but I would consider chambering the bodys, with either covering the chambers with a pick guard or a maple laminate top. I dont know how good your back is.

I'm working with Andy as how best to lighten the weight should it become an issue. But I've held the rough bodies, and honestly, they aren't bad.

you see BD he kinda skirted around the "how good your back is" item in your post...lol

My neck thru pxr custom is mahogany / maple / walnut solid and weighs a ton! I dont care. The tone and sustain from this bass is rediculous! Worth the extra weight. Reduced some of it with the kahler route and huge elec cavity route, but thats it.

And its not like ill only play one bass thru a whole set. Each of my regulars has its own specific sound and purpose.

Lets see some pre finished bass pics eric!

No, I wasn't skirting, Mike.

BD, I expressed your concerns about the weight to Andy, and he assured me that he has a number of tricks to ensure it doesn't weigh a ton. And besides, I've already held the neck and body wings together to check on the weight, and it really wasn't bad. I'm feeling fairly safe.

hey, if it is real heavy ... chek out maxx straps. neoprene ... oooh.

furreal, i been using them exclusively for about 10 years. THE most comfortable strap i've ever found, heavy bass or not.

Hey Eric I've got a question about your new basses.

Since I'm preparing for and thinking about my own build I sometimes stumble upon things I wonder about.

This is my question:

What is the headstock angle? Why is it this angle?

In my humble uninformed oppinion a very large headstock tilt leads to more sustain, but also more friction with trem use.
A shallower angle leads to less friction with trem use but also to less sustain, it may also lead to strings jumping out of the nut with trem use (I read)

The guy that enqountered the strings jumping out of the nut used roller string retainer to counteract this, roller is better as standard fender for example in terms of friction, but I guess its better to have such a angle that string jumping just does not occur (BTW I possibly should have mentioned that this guy used a sustainiac, do you people have encountered string jumping without a susainiac?).
So I think the angle would be a compromise between sustain and trem friction, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm really looking foreward to some replies. And I appologize if I'm too much off topic!

Jim wrote:

Hey Eric I've got a question about your new basses.

Since I'm preparing for and thinking about my own build I sometimes stumble upon things I wonder about.

This is my question:

What is the headstock angle? Why is it this angle?

In my humble uninformed oppinion a very large headstock tilt leads to more sustain, but also more friction with trem use.
A shallower angle leads to less friction with trem use but also to less sustain, it may also lead to strings jumping out of the nut with trem use (I read)

The guy that enqountered the strings jumping out of the nut used roller string retainer to counteract this, roller is better as standard fender for example in terms of friction, but I guess its better to have such a angle that string jumping just does not occur (BTW I possibly should have mentioned that this guy used a sustainiac, do you people have encountered string jumping without a susainiac?).
So I think the angle would be a compromise between sustain and trem friction, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm really looking foreward to some replies. And I appologize if I'm too much off topic!

hey jim, i'm gonna beat eric to it, and i've done several builds (with purchased and rebuilt necks) and this is what i have found to work the best .......

13 degree headstock angle. i have found it to be the best for keeping the strings in the nut, sustain (kahlers increase sustain themselves already significantly) and less friction causing tuning issues.

in regards to trem use (and general standard tuning) i have found 3 things .......

#1) the less "points" that a string is in contact with, the less friction, the less it is impeded by any of these friction points from bridge ball end anchor to the tuning machine. string trees and even rollers ... more friction points. sharp angles increase the friction ... like a 18 or 20 degree angle headstock. more angles to come in #3.

#3) if there is a wide difference in length of string from nut to machine head, this is something else that will throw differences in tensions. not a major difference, but may make the difference in whether a tuning issue is "noticeable" or not. example ... i prefer to not do a trem on a 4 in line tuner headstock ... a 2X2, bass / treble side tuners always seem to work better for me. the lengths to the tuning machines are overall shorter (for the d and g treble side strings) and less difference in length overall. also, angles ... if the strings are going from nut to tuners at harsh angles (or "wonky" as eric puts it) like on some 4 in a row headstocks, this will lead to tuning issues ... not to mention, side slot wear on the nut and possibility of strings popping out of the nut.

D) Guys here have made all kindsa stuff work, from flat fender headstocks with string trees, to roller string trees (i used one before ... eh) to headstocks designed specifically for trem use (like the 2X2, 13 degree style i prefer). no matter how you go about it, i think its unanimous here that the thing that effects the tuning the most is the nut.

it needs to be the proper material ... graphite. nice and slippery. it works better than bone or brass. i would never consider to use plastic on anything. i have used corian with good results but ....

it needs to be lubricated. Lubricate! again ... graphite. get a #2 pencil and color in the slots where the strings sit. this will keep the strings slipping freely thru the slots.

Lastly is the nut needs to be cut correctly. if the slots are too narrow, the strings will hang up in it. if the angle from intonated face (fret side) to the back (tuners side) is off, or long, it will cause more friction point. again, as least amount of friction point on the strings.

not that any of these are the end all, be all solutions for proper set up, but these are different things that can be tried to bridge the gap between problems and a decent playing instrument.




anything else eric?

I'm gonna beat Eric to it once more!

Thank you Mike, your post was verry helpfull.

I personally was considering a plastic nut. Since I'm a real techhead (you might remember the crazy calculations right Mike), I think the right plastic will do the trick as well.

I am a great fan of the plastic named Teflon which is the plastic with the lowest friction coefficient out there (NASA stuff, now notably used in frying pans so that the food does not stick to it (mainly by the frying pan brand TEFAL, no surprise where they got their name and succes from)). But allthough I am a fan of Teflon, I was going to use the Warwick adjust a nut which is also plastic, I think it is a teflon mixed with a other plastic nut for enhanced tone, they call it Tedur. (I'll look up the details on this for you guys (allthough I'm not sure you guys are such die hard geeks as me who would want to know all this crap, but for you who do I'll let you know)

Thaughts on these weird high tech plastics anyone? I do have a unused Teflon nut lying here at home somewhere which I think I bought from wammiworld.

BTW found some friction coefficient data (lower number is slippier):
Graphite/steel 0.1
Teflon/steel 0.04
Tedur/steel (dependent on composition of the Tedur, mailed Warwick for more information)

So Teflon is smoother then graphite and adding graphite in a Teflon nut would cause a increase in friction.

Once again I'd like to apologize for my off topicness, I tend to get lost in my enthusiasm over the weirdest things.

teflon is great stuff ... very slippery.

we have just started using teflon coatings in a new product line at work. we'll get bags with 500 teflon coated parts and i'll have to count, qc and machine a sear face. i keep dropping them on the floor and all over the place because they are so slippery!

hey ... if you find better nut material to use ... awesome! let us know and keep us up to date, because all the stuff i mentioned, nothing is physically "perfect" ... the more you can cheat it the better the overall performance.

thread killers...go get a room

Ha!

Well, eric needs to post pictures. Until then we gotta talk about something.

You Guys are too funny!

OK, lessee if I can answer everything properly. Jim, I don't have the exact specs on the angle of the headstock. I only told Andy to make it like P/J bass would be. Flat. No angle. Nope. Other than the normal downward scoop, there will be no angles. I'll tell you why. Every single bass I've had a Kahler on that had an angled headstock was a total bear to keep in tune. It didn't matter if it had a stock plastic nut, a metal nut, or a graphite/Teflon nut. The problem was always the same. Too dramatic of an increase in tension at the nut as the bar returned to pitch, and the strings would go sharp.

Also. No string trees. Ever. With every single bass I've ever owned, the very first thing I would do is remove the string trees.

Now, all of my beloved, dear, old Yamaha BB300's had the same straight angle as a P/J bass does, and I never had any problems with them despite the fact that they had the stock plastic nuts on them. And no string trees. And to be honest, I never had any sustain issues.

I also continue to wind the strings up the post, instead of down, to lessen the angle as much as possible. This is yet one of many tricks I learned from reading those old articles with Eddie Van Halen about how he kept his stock bar in tune in the pre-Floyd Rose days.

But you do raise a good point, and that is about getting enough downward pressure on the nut to maintain good sustain, and to prevent the strings from popping off the nut. Having a straight headstock without string trees does create a challenge. What I have found is that it is a balancing act when winding the strings on the posts.

Now, I do have a gorgeous picture of the twins that Andy included in a text message....if only I could figure out how to get it off my phone to post it!

Aw crap! The nut material! Sorry, Jim!

Andy and I chose Teflon for both nuts. They are blanks that Andy will carve the grooves into himself. This is typically how he does things.

EricHaven wrote:

But you do raise a good point, and that is about getting enough downward pressure on the nut to maintain good sustain, and to prevent the strings from popping off the nut. Having a straight headstock without string trees does create a challenge. What I have found is that it is a balancing act when winding the strings on the posts.

an uh ... what brand of whatever teflon material you got and where did you get it?????

and yeah ... most modern phones have a usb connection as the charger input. you plug it into you computing device doo dad and a doohickey pops up and tells you, "welcome to technology!"

unless you got this .....

LOL! I'll have to ask Andy where he got the material from.

And no, my phone is slightly newer than that! It's a Samsung Exhibit II. Like I said, I have a great pic of the twins that's in a text Andy sent me, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out how exactly to share it!

I'll keep working on it.

Thanx eric.

EricHaven wrote:

LOL! I'll have to ask Andy where he got the material from.

And no, my phone is slightly newer than that! It's a Samsung Exhibit II. Like I said, I have a great pic of the twins that's in a text Andy sent me, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out how exactly to share it!

I'll keep working on it.

You go to the picture on your phone and go under actions and either choose forward / email and email it to yourself, then you can upload it to your photo site.

Now I'm confused,

I've now got the discussion about headstock angle:

Eric: Flat compensate with winding on post.
Mike: 13 degrees

Oppinions on this pro's and con's?

P.S.1 Perhaps it could be handy if someone measured the angles on a Fender like headstock (Eric?)
P.S.2 I'm gonna use sperzel locking tuners, so winding won't be used on my bass

If I had a bass like a P, I would gladly take those measurements for you, Jim. But unfortunately, I don't at the moment. At the same time, I'm sure that MadMike can provide those measurements, since he is our resident bass luthier.

As far as the pros and cons go, all I can do is comment on my own personal experience. It's funny, because when I built this site (and even going back to the old Kahler board), I had folks coming to me like I'm some sort of expert. But I was always very clear. I am not an expert on bass trems. I simply found some things that worked for me, and I wanted to share those tips with whoever wanted the advice. Everyone has what works for them, which is why I encourage players to share their experiences.

Classic example. Mike/Amimbari plays his beloved Kahlerized Jacksons with the angled, pointy headstocks. If it were me, I would run the other way, since those have always been trouble for me. But Mike makes them work. So who am I to say what works and what doesn't?

My point is that MadMike expressed an angle of 13 degrees, and he is correct in that he makes them work. I, on the other, cannot. So I default to the stock Fender design. For all of the so-called "facts", there is still a large curve to overcome, usually through a lot of personal experimentation.

And one other thing (again, just my two-cents, your mileage may vary), I once had a set of Sperzels on a bass, and I was pretty disappointed with the results. OK, to be fair, I was expecting them to behave like a locking nut would, which they did not since there was still the issue of passing over the nut into the keys to deal with. The story goes, Mr. Sperzel and I spent a lot of time talking on the phone about different aspects of his tuners, and he sent me a complementary set. I threw into my Yamaha, and put it through its paces. One of my biggest issues was the fact that you can only get the bass machines in mini-size. I had to drop them through the stock Yamaha key collars to get them to stay put. I told him that if he were to design full-size keys, he would make a mint. He did say that he was working on it, but this was several years ago, and I haven't seen anything different yet. So if you are replacing standard tuners, the Sperzels won't fit since they are too small for the stock holes. Just something to consider.

Barklessdog wrote:

You go to the picture on your phone and go under actions and either choose forward / email and email it to yourself, then you can upload it to your photo site.

I know this is correct BD, but the problem is that the picture is in a text message from Andy, and it does not give me any of the aforementioned forwarding options.

OK, so I'm not the brightest bulb in the box!

Who would have thought that all I had to do was connect my phone to our computer?

Ladies and Gentleman, I give you The Twins:



On the left is Remus, which is the fiver. Romulus is the four-stringer on the right.

The necks are at the engraver having bass clefs engrave for the fret markers, as well as Andy's signature on the back of the headstocks. But this is as they appeared the last time I saw them.

I gotta agree with eric. Different players, different basses, different ideas. Im understanding why eric uses the slight to no angle technique and why it works. It, as well as the 13 degree design i use both have their drawbacks to overcome. Ill draw up some different design ideas and post in a new thread soon.

Eric. Me + fender? Yuk. I dontwill touch em. But i will incorporate that in my drawings.

And yo. They are some sweet looking hunks of lumber. I love the lam wedge running up the centers. Cool headstocks too!

Thanks, MadMike!

The headstocks are based on the old Fender Strat's from the 70's. I have always LOVED seeing Ritchie Blackmore and Uli Roth throw those things around, and when Andy asked me what design I wanted, it was a no-brainer.

The dark stripes are mahogany, and Andy told me these would increase the strength of the design, plus it will look really cool to have those stripes running down the back of the neck.

Yeah, like I've always said, everyone has to find what works for them. I'm not sure why the same technique/trick works for some, but not for others. The only thing I can come up with is that everyone has a different touch on the instrument. This is what I love about having this place. Rather than simply having one or two ideas, players can select from many different answers to find whatever works the best for them.

Some more evolution of The Twins!

The fretboards:



The backs of the headstocks:

Very nice tose bass clefs as position markers!

You know in history Romulus killed Remus because of jealousy? So be sure to give them even attention

I'll be sure and do that, Jim.

Initially, Andy I tossed around the term "The Twins", since they are going to be identical. But than I started thinking that I wanted them to have better identities. Since we are also putting a Celtic wolf design on the front of the headstock, I began thinking of something to tie it all in. Ergo, I remembered the legend of Romulus and Remus. They were raised by a wolf, and went on the form the Roman Empire, whihc is now Italy. Since I have always loved wolves, and am also half-Italian, it made perfect sense.

very pretty so far. And jealous of each other from lack of playing one or the other Jim?...lol
if that was real some of my units would be REALLY pissed at me

I always call my Ibanez SR300 Cindy, and Sammick 6 string Beth, Cindy was quite jealous when I took Beth in, but with age the looks of Beth deteriorated (a Kahler and a roland midi Hex pickup and a prototype locking nut I installed myself didn't do her looks good) and now she kinda looks like a science project. So I'm back to Cindy 'till something better comes around (I hope my own custom build this summer will be it). Then I also have Ruth (a Fender jazz replica cheapo, so I think she deserves the name ) who's fun to hang around with sometimes, but the doesn't compare to Cindy.
In the end I think the first always remains special!

Eric's twins are cool because they are not made on a CNC machine so will never be identical.
I have plenty of production twins but nothing on the home made scale in the future.

And as far as naming them?..lol, I have too many.

For me, by default, they are all called bessie.

EricHaven wrote:

One difference is that I am going to put in (yes, yes, I know....we've waxed poetic about this in the past, but I'm willing to give it a go) a Hipshot Detuner for the E string of the four, since I want to be able to access a low D. It might take a little balancing act against the Kahler, but I'm going to at least try.

please do! since i've got 5ver strung EADGC and (still) in attempt to put 7415 on it..
eric, could you post some pic about the 7415 cavity routing?

Ah shoot....alas, I did not document the routing process.

I had a major advantage in my guitarist Andy, since he has a number of routing templates on hand for such things. He ended up taking one that was close, and modifying it for my Kahler fiver. It worked perfectly.

We followed the very same logic that we have all spoken of with regards to making sure the frame is counter-sunk into the body, and it worked like a champ.

What details did you want to see, Spyd3r?

EricHaven wrote:

Ah shoot....alas, I did not document the routing process.

I had a major advantage in my guitarist Andy, since he has a number of routing templates on hand for such things. He ended up taking one that was close, and modifying it for my Kahler fiver. It worked perfectly.

We followed the very same logic that we have all spoken of with regards to making sure the frame is counter-sunk into the body, and it worked like a champ.

What details did you want to see, Spyd3r?

i want to see how wide the cavity routing (with countersunk) for 7415 and the whole measurement-routing process..
nevermind, just my curiosity

Ill be doing one and documenting it all with photos step by step real soon for eric to put on the new website.

madmike wrote:

Ill be doing one and documenting it all with photos step by step real soon for eric to put on the new website.

great!!

so, when the new website will be launched?