Kahler questions

I guess I've been spending too much time watching Eric's bass solo videos on youtube because I've been giving alot of thought recently to getting a Kahler for one my Attitudes.
I've got a few questions I was hoping to get some help with.

My biggest concern is tonal changes, is there a great change in tone for better or worse?
How much wood needs to be taken out to get a nice low action?
Will the Kahler have any trouble coming back into tune in DGCF tuning?
I notice there is more than one model of Kahler tremolo, is there any one that is more recommended than the other?

Thats all I can think of right now,
Sorry if this stuff has been asked before.

Atomic Al wrote:

I guess I've been spending too much time watching Eric's bass solo videos on youtube because I've been giving alot of thought recently to getting a Kahler for one my Attitudes.

Shoot....Al, you've got WAY too much time on your hands for the tripe I've posted to inspire you for anything!  

Seriously, coming from a player such as you, I take that as a serious compliment.

OK. On to your questions. Yes, these topics have been covered before, but it is not a problem to re-hash them here for you, Bro.

As a side note, Yamaha basses seem to have some sort of inherent mojo about them that makes them well-suited for Kahlers. I have owned both BB300's amd RBX series basses from Yamaha, and they were built like tanks. The Attitudes are a lot like the aforementioned basses, only on steroids. Simply put, the marriage of a Yamaha Attitude bass and a Kahler bass trem makes for a match made in Heaven as far as I am concerned.  

1) Over the past 30 years, I have heard players express concern about the tonal changes a Kahler can make on a bass. Personally, I think these concerns are unfounded. I have installed Kahlers on every bass I have owned since 1984, and I have noticed nary a change in the tone. The simplest answer is yes, there will be a slight change in the tone (as any change in hardware will create), but it won't make hardly any difference IMHO. In fact, many players report an increase in sustain, since the Kahler bridge is so high in mass.

2) To get the best possible results, you have to countersink the frame into the body. I have found that countersinking about halfway down the thickness of the frame does the trick. You want to do this because if you were to simply top-mount a Kahler onto the bass (as was the old-school way of doing it), you might find that you cannot lower the saddles enough to get good action before the strings bottom out on the saddle frames. Now, my old Yamaha BB300's were such that I could get away with simply top-mounting the Kahlers. But every other bass I've owned required counter-sinking. In the end though, you are going to remove a lot less material than you might expect either way you go. Kahlers simply do not require that much wood to be removed. That's the beauty of the design. Here are the original threads about properly installing a Kahler: Proper Installation Of A Kahler Bass Tremolo

3) The question of tuning stability comes down to how you set the trem up, and what measures you employ to keep it in tune. I have had great luck with alternate tunings, but it comes down to setting the trem springs for whatever tuning you employ the most. I have found that if I play EADG, then detune to DADG, the difference is almost nil. The easiest thing to do would be to direct you to the thread entitled Keeping It In Tune!

4) I have owned several Kahlers from both the 2400 series, as well as the 7400 series, and I can't tell the difference. For an Attitude, you could get yourself a 7410, and be totally good to go.

I hope this helps, but be sure to post any other concerns you might have.

The Attitude LTD that I built started as a Yamaha M plus Attitude (was even that Billy Sheehan blue) and routed, hacked and reconfigured the thing to be an LTD just like Billy did way back when. The neck joint and several other things about the bass were inferior and different than the LTD you have. I wanted to set it apart and be my own so I had every intention of putting a 7410 kahler on it. The body was too short.

You need at least 1.9" from the current intonation line on the bridge saddles that are on there now to the back of the bass. If less, when the kahler is positioned properly so the saddles can be intonated properly, the kahler base will be hanging off the back of the body or, if not positioned properly, it will never be able to be intonated correctly. Kahler trem just has a bigger footprint. The saddles need to end up in the same place as the saddles on your current bridge if intonated properly.

Make sense?

I usually demand the full 2" from the E saddle to the back of the bass so theres a little bit of wood from the back of the trem to the bottom of the bass. Ive had ones where the two are flush. I can't stand improperly intonated instruments.

Measure the LTD and see if you get the same results as I did with the M plus.

If it won't work, start a project that will. Example. That jag bass I have for sale fits a kahler great. It could be converted over to stereo LTD electronics. At that point, it might as well get a custom finish too.  

Thank you for the replys Eric and MadMike!

I wonder if the body on your Attitude is smaller than mine? I'm not too familiar with that model, but do know people on the Yamaha Attitude facebook page hold them in high regard.
Does that mean this guys Kahler on his Attitude is not intonated properly?

Or this guys?


I'II try and take some pictures with a ruler when I can find one and post them here.
I'm not really keen on putting a Kahler on a bass besides the Attitude.
I've been using them for years, the huge baseball bat neck feels perfect in my hands and they come stereo which is what my rig is based around.
Having to find another bass to mod stereo with a neck I like is a whole other headache that at the end of the day I'd wish I was playing my Attitude haha.

ive never held the M plus and an LTD side by side. yes, they are very nice basses for what they are ... bottom of the line entry level instruments. they arent super available because of the, what is it (?) RBX that eric likes so much. but yes, the body on the M plus may be slightly smaller. I was kinda surprised how small when i had mine (smaller than a p standard body), tried to put a kahler on it (woulda hung off the back) and tried to cram all that wiring in it (i hope nobody ever takes the pickguard off ... ittl burst open with wires going "boing"). ive never had a true LTD so I have nothing to compare it to.

i would not make a comparison to a double neck. I garentee all the dimensions and specs on that thing are custom and totally different.

i really cant tell if its intonated properly or not. i can look at pictures and guess but that doesnt mean pictures are relatively proportional to scale or that the neck was pushed forward to move the scale up for the short body (i've done that). The only real way to tell if an instrument is intonated properly is to play it and have it hooked to a tuner. messing around and intonating instruments for the last several years i can tell by ear right away when i'm playing it. when someone else is playing i just really cant tell ... it is what it is and if it is off, i just think that that is how they play (crappy).

looking at that dark blue one based on my experience ... yeah, that doesnt look right. again ... i dont have it in my hands.

truth is, most ameture bassist i see playing locally dont have their instruments intonated properly. they figure if it came from the factory that way that its right ... and never notice the difference. thats all fine and good and all but, now your talking about permanently altering an instrument ... and an expensive one at that. do it correctly so it can have the opportunity to be right.

or not. i'm not the bass cops.

yeah, I just went and looked at a buncha different images. Theres no way to tell untill you measure it. different versions have the bridge and intonation line in different places.

like this one seems like it wouldnt fit .... intonation line is too far back .....



this one seems like theres plenty o room ........



wait. ...... is that yours? i just found it on a google search. whats going on with the intonation on the G string? thats not right ... no way.

ya just gotta measure it from a bass that you know is intonated properly. where those saddles are in relation to the 12th fret is the same place the new kahler saddles need to be. make sense.

heres the m plus i started with.



... and the kahler hung off the back. i coulda cheated the neck up but, it was just way too much work than the instrument was worth.

Ah I didn't mean to say that I'd throw on the Kahler regardless of it fitting or not, if it wouldn't fit I wouldn't put it on.
The double neck is two Attitudes joined together, Yamaha's customs shop isn't open to the public.
I think the person who has that bass has a kahler on regular, non double necked Attitude aswell.

That one isn't mine, its a LTD 1 some one has painted black, put black pickguard and neck cover on.

Anyhow ... that's how the thing fits. The saddles need to fall where the proper intonation points are. The range of +- motion for the saddles front and back is .4", so you got to get it close for the saddles to be able to be adjusted to the right spot.

I just wanted to comment on your question of tone. I think the kahler trems have better tone and sustain than MOST stock and aftermarket bridges. Eric sez its the mass. Maybe. I think because of the cam block (like a sustain block), the brass saddle rollers and the amount of the base in contact with the bass.

Sorry for the crappy picture, how does this look?
Does it look like this will intonate properly?



Probably should have cleaned my bridge up before that picture haha

I had no idea there was so much variation in the bridge area on the Attitudes. To be fair, my own two-cents are based purely on what I've seen and heard, but not on any actual experience with them. MadMike has a much better idea of how it would work than I ever could.

I just measured my blue LTD1 and my green LTD2.
The bridge on the LTD1 has more space than the bridge on my LTD2.
From what I can tell, the Kahler would fit without coming off the back of the bass on a LTD1.
I wanted to put it on it on my LTD2 since thats the bass that I've put all the wear on to myself, played so many gigs on and spelt so much sweat and even some blood on to it.
I don't wanna hack up the LTD1 since its a older bass and not that many were made of it.
So it looks like no Kahler for me

Actually..  maybe not all hope is lost.
I was thinking, if the Kahler didn't need to be counter sunk, I might be able to put the bridge in anyway and just live with it slightly hanging off,
but what if the corner sticking off was machined down to fit on the body? That way I think the counter sinking would be better. Since this is a bass I'm never going to sell, if its not cosmetically perfect, that doesn't really bother me.
What do you guys think? Am I crazy for considering this? Looking at the picture madmike posted of the Kahler on his Attitude, it looks possible.

I, uuuuh, didn't post a pic of a kahler on my attitude ... it didn't fit. I mean, yes, you are right; I coulda made it work. This was a refinish to make it look brand new, so I didn't want something frankenstein so I didn't do it.

If I remember, the base of the kahler would have overhung like 1/16 of an inch on the M plus. Thank you for doing the research. I guess its easy when you have 2 right there. I suspected one body was different than another different issue by just looking at it.

I think you have a misconception when we say "countersunk". We are talking about the base of the kahler actually sitting in the body below the surface. Kahlers stand about 3/8" taller than most bridges. Thats fine for some basses ... you cut a pocket and bolt the thing right to the top. Others, the surface of the frets is lower. You got to drop the saddle rollers to get the action right. 7410 reverse saddles have manifolds that hold the assembly together in front of the roller. Drop the roller down too far for closer action and the strings tap and buzz on the manifolds. I've tried to come ip with a standard measurement so I can measure and say, "this needs to be countersunk" (in my superhero voice) but every manufacturers neck, fret to body surface difference, action, nut to bridge angle and relief are different. The best way is to just cut the pocket and surface mount it, string it up and try to set the action. If you get buzz or simply can't go low enuff, you estimate what you need and do a second route for the trem to sit in.

Has nothing to do with hanging off the back.

I know this seems like a lot. Its just real wordy trying to describe this stuff. Once you do it, you usually get it and think, "that's not complicated!" Truth is, you seem like a great bassist and you are a gigging musician. I want you to get a trem on sn attitude. I want you to use it. I want you to "get it". I want you to love it (I do).

Talking .......

(Stupid phone)

Talking about hanging off the back .....

I never thought about altering the base of the trem. I'm sure I could machine some material off the back and thered still be enuff on the surface for the trem to remain stable.

Look. I have a bass with a trem that has some of these issues we are talking about. I have the time today so ill shoot some descriptive pictures, descriptions and definitions, take some measurements and post some kinda game plan to make this work on your older attitude. It may be slightly frankenstein, but ittl work correctly.

Ah sorry, I ment the picture of your Attitude in the thread you made about it. Been trying to dig up everything I can on this.

What I thought Eric said about counter sinking and the thread with pictures he linked was sinking the frame of the Kahler into the body, which I was thinking wouldn't work well if the Kahler was hanging off the body.
Thanks for your help, I really appreciate it. I would love to get the Kahler to work on this bass. The more I think about having one, the more I think about how it can evolve my playing.
If I end up having to machine some of the Kahler off, I think trying to find a used Kahler would be the way to go instead of murdering the warranty the moment I get it.
Going to talk to my guitar guy today and see what he says.

looking at the pictures you posted ... the blue one is not countersunk .... the red one is.

ok you do understand what it is. i just tried to explain as to why.

for ease of communication then, lets talk about directions of movement in X, Y and Z. X is the horizontal so that would be the movement from bridge to nut. Y would be movement from from treble side or the g string to the bass side or the e ... top to bottom. Z would be from front to back. shoulda talked about it like that a long time ago.

countersink is a Z motion. getting the intonation right and where the trem needs to be is X. if X is too great with the base hanging off the back and we wanted to cheat it by shaving some of the base off so its flush, whether the base is sunk or not, Z, there is still gonna be the same amount of the base in contact with the wood ... correct?

Yes I believe that is correct.
What I am worried about is that if X is hanging off the back of the bass, that it will create a problem with Z's counter sinking.

If X is hanging off the back of the bass, there are only a few problems, theoretically NOT with countersinking it. But by reducing contact area between the bridge and the wood you may sightly affect tone in a negative way (mainly sustain I guess). And, most importantly why people don't do this: It is not as pleasing to the eye. If the amount of hanging over in te back is too big you might get a problem with the screws to mount the kahler, this would make it a deffinite no go in my oppinion.

I thought about that as well Jim, but I figured that since the Kahler is so much larger than the stock bridge, even if one corner of the Kahler is slightly hanging off, it would still have more mass connected to the bass than the stock bridge, if that makes any sense. The screws still have plenty of room.

From the picture you posted Al, it looks like the governing factor is going to be the intonation line of your E string, since that's the one that sits furthest back.

MadMike, what would happen if Al had his E string saddle on a Kahler bottomed out all the way to the back?

I talked to the guy who is going to do the install, he said it will be fine slightly hanging off.
I think I'm going to order the Kahler soon, unless you guys have any more concerns we might not have covered?
Here is the picture of MadMikes,



Its not hanging off a horrible amount. Which should be the same amount it will hang off mine.
One thing I want to ask before ordering it, the string gauges I'm using are 45,60,85,110
Some might consider this light for tuning to DGCF, Any concern with using the Kahler and those gauges?
The strings are D'Addario ProSteels.

Ya know what? Thsts not a lot.

When I get to a computer, ill tell you about string gauges and nut / tuner mechanics so you csn get it to stay in tune.

thanx for finding that pic. i was looking for it and couldnt find it.

this is a kahler countersunk on my carvin v440 copy. i cut the body and my calculations were wrong (1/16") and i also didnt take into consideration the bevel on the edge of the body (1/4") so the body ended up shorter than i wanted. the tail end of the kahler at the shortest point is exactly flush with the back of the body. the result with the countersink took of the bevel on the back edge of the body ... ya gotta really look. not bad considering i'm copying a body shape from pictures on the internet.



now your talking about shaving off some of the back of the base of the kahler .... i think you can remove up to 1/8" straight off the back, or even more if its on an angle (per where the base is sitting on my attitude in the pic you found). remember ... i think different models are different body lengths so save modifications to the kahler for last. get your mounting and intonation correct before you decide to cut into the metal. you can always take more off ... you cant put it back. if its similar to the way mine ended up, you could probably get away with just taking 1/8" or so off the top back corner and ittl be flush with the back of the bass. sweet!

TUNING! i promised you i'de talk to you about strings and tuning issues.

its all about all strings being as even as possible as far as friction. it is physically impossible to remove all the friction and a bass work properly. if you can reduce it in spots and even it out with the others so when you use the trem, it should return to in tune or pretty dang close.

Nut - Any nut will work but it needs to be the correct saddle shape, angles across the nut are an issue, lubrication helps and some materials work better than others. some guys here have talked about thinner gauge strings working better but, as with anything trying to get it as good as possible, these efforts may overcome any issue because of the strings you use.

- material.

graphite tusq nuts work the best. its graphite ... super slippery and self lubricating. just part of it.

when this nut is filed, the depth of the grooves need to maintain their depth or height off the frets so the back end action plays correct. most bass' nuts are cut from the factory to accept 105 bass strings. even with this standard and leaving the slot depth the same i will file away at the SIDES of the slots. if you put your thicker gauge strings across that nut with a trem, when you hit the trem, the strings will bind in the SIDES of the slot on the return. even worser, they will bind unevenly and not return to being in tune. make those slots wider. now, if your getting a tusq nut, you need to file it, or have a tech file it, or have your luthier friend file it. either way, when you get it back, chek your string diameter in the slots and open them up a little to keep the strings from binding. talk to your luthier about it ... he may "get it" and get it right for you the first shot.

more "anti - binding" at the nut tricks. its slippery graphite right? give it a little more. when you put strings on, try coloring in the nut slots with some #2 pencil. more graphite. i even go a step further and use orbital grease in the nut slots, with the #2 pencil. sometimes i've used chapstick in there with #2 pencil. i've also heard of guitar players using this stuff called "nut juice" (eww). i've never tried it but i guess its worth a shot right ... attempting to achieve the same principal.

- angles.

theres two angles to think about.

the angle the string comes out of the nut to the machine head is important. some basses that angle is just gross and harsh. eric calls them "wonky" angles. a straight line from the bridge to the nut to the machine head is ideal. slightly bent going across the nut will work. every string different going from straight to harsh is just gonna cause problems.
wonky .....


looks to me like the A string would stay in tune and thats about it. check out the width of the slots on the D and G strings too. bindey! if you let go of the trem, this thing would never return to in tune. lets look at yours .......



i think your good.

next is the angles going over the bridge. again, consistent is more important than what it is. yours isnt ... i know for a fact. this is why they use a string tree. not to mention the string tree just being another point for friction. yes, they have roller trees that would reduce that friction to a certain degree but, we are talking about you using thicker gauge strings and there are better ways to get this angle pretty close to even across the strings and also eliminate the need for the tree. i just did it with the last kahler install i did on a fender jazz type headstock.

putting on strings - always coil down the machine head post. cut your leads a little longer so you can coil it down further. i'm pretty good at it so i know where to cut it so i have a pretty good idea how far the string is going to coil down the post till it comes away to the nut. ittl be in the picture.

this is new, and made the difference. i tried just doing the above coil trick and the D and E strings were buzzing on open notes on the back side of the slot. i needed a steeper angle, more like the A and E strings had, without using a tree.

shim the tuners away - i needed the posts deeper and where the curve where you wrap the string around is, closer to the headstock face. i made shims. the D was 1/8" and the G was 3/16" i made them flush with the machine head base, drilled holes and found screws a bit longer. make sense? no trees necessary .......



this is a scrap set of strings so its a bad example for the coils going down, but check out how the A,D and G strings are a consistent angle and how the posts on the D and G are noticeably shorter.



and i know, that E string has that "wonky angle". guess what? it doesnt stay in tune 100% ... but good enuff to get me thru 3 songs on stage before a retune or switching out to another bass. ive always done that anyway so ... good enuff for me.

both of these nut and machine head tuning problems i have had better luck with just using a bass with 2x2 tuners and a 13 degree headstock with a graphite nut ... right? make sense?



ok, that nut is corian ... but #2 pencil and chapstick, wide enuff string slots, straight angles back and forth and consistent angles over the nut ... this bass stays in tune when i use the trem.

i think if you follow these guidelines when you put this thing together, even with thick gauge strings, you'll be allright. there are all kindsa issues with putting one of these trems on your bass and they can all be overcome.

more questions? ... lay em on me.

oh yeah ... eric, if the saddles are backed "all the way out" #1 the clamp holding the saddle assembly wont get enuff "bite" to keep it stable. #2 the back of the assembly will interfere with the cam when you use the trem. these both seem to happen at the same point of travel of the assembly going back.



this has the roller assembly about 1/32" forward of the cam ... pretty close but exactly where it needed to be to be intonated, so i didnt take the trem off, fill the holes, re drill and tweak the trem back another 1/16" or so.

sorry my bass is so dusty guys. we just did renovations on the house and dust got everywhere. what am i talking about? all the guitars and basses I refinish and build ... me and amy live in sawdust.

and Al ... dont assume because of that picture thats where the kahler is going to sit on yours. remember ... TAKE ALL MEASUREMENTS FROM THE INTONATION LINE. the saddles of the new kahler should sit exactly where your current saddles are if they are intonated properly.

Wow, thanks for all that info MadMike!
Just so I can be clear, what exactly do I need to measure from the intonation line?

There are two measurements to take.

On your existing bridge, assuming its intonated properly, the G string saddle is forward twards the pickups and the E string saddle is back twards the butt end. The intonation line is the line across the bridge that is the middle point between these two saddles. Its so when you mount the kahler with all the saddles in the middle of their forward and backward range right on this line you can move them forward and backward enuff so you can set them at the same exact spots your existing saddles are now ... same distance from the nut and more important same distance your existing saddles are from the 12th fret.

Next way to look at it.

A bass is 34" scale standard. 1/2 of that is 17". If your bass is 34" scale and you measure from the nut to the 12th fret it should be 17". Since the12th fret is the middle of your scale then your intonation line should be 17" from the 12th fret to a perpendicular line on the body. This is the middle point of the forward and backward adjustment of each saddle you need to compensate for the difference of each string diameter and each tension so that each string registers E open, E on the 12th fret and E 12th fret harmonic, A open, A on the 12th fret, A on the 12th fret harmonic, and D..., and G... This is important so when you play a D on the A string on the 5th fret its true D, not sharp or flat D. If you play a D on the G string on the 7th fret, its true D, not sharp or flat.

Make sense?

Ah now I see what you mean.
I'm getting a guitar tech to install the Kahler.
Thats more his department I think?

IMHO "luthiers" charge to much and I've never found one who's work impressed me so, I think think things like intonation, relief, set up and basic soldering are things every bassist should know.

You can install this kahler. Its not difficult. Your talking to us who have done it. Has your tech?

Surprisingly, he said he has installed several over the years and I'd much rather pay him then risk destroying my beloved bass.
I haven't touched wood working tools since Shop class in High School in 2007 and I can't remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday...
Anyway, I trust my tech to get it done right.
How long is the Kahler in inches?

Hey eric! Could you sticky note this drawing do it stays at the top of the "kahler" section? Or ill redo it if you don't like it. Its useful info and nobody rlse has done something like this ... not even kahler.

Here ya go Al.

Thanks MadMike!

Oooh!

I found a great picture of an example of a countersink.



And with the 7410 in there .....



Remember, its just a tweak to lower the up and down travel range of the saddles so the strings don't buzz on the assemblies in front of the rollers. It makes the assembly angle greater and away from the strings. Best thing to do is flat top mount it and see how low you can set the action. Some basses its fine. If you get the buzz, countersink 1/8" - 3/16".

I am glad you found a tech you trust. Just for your own certianty, I'm shure he has the internet; pull up this thread and have him look at all the details we have discussed here. If he has questions, have him join the forum. He can ask and we'll be happy to help him get your bass right.

Looks like I'm gonna have to wait a few weeks before ordering my Kahler, I messaged WhammiWorld to see when the Black 7410's will be back in stock and he told me that Kahler just moved their factory to Las Vegas. I imagine I'd still have to wait if I ordered a 2410 directly from Kahler as well.
Bummer
I've actually been playing stuff on bass and imagining in my head where the tremolo would be, gonna be a painful wait!

This just came up on the bay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Kahler-Hybrid-7410-Bass-Tremolo-BLACK-CHROME-/390642872649?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item5af4213149
Think I might pick that one up!

madmike wrote:

Hey eric! Could you sticky note this drawing do it stays at the top of the "kahler" section?

Shoot....I can't seem to find a sticky-note option on the board. I'll keep looking, but in the mean time, you are an unlimited source of the exact, correct information to help Al. Thank you, MadMike!

Yes! Thank you again MadMike!
You too Eric!
You've both been a huge help to me with this!

Ordered a 7410!

That is a great price.

Ive ordered from pitch perfect before. Thoroughly inspect the trem for casting flaws, unfinished edges and that all the parts are there. It took them 3 trems to get it right. I kept one at a blem discount.





The replacement he sent me only had one spring. WT*!

He claims to be an authorized kahler dealer. Oooookay.


The black chrome are new ones. Hopefully they are 100%

And oh yeah ... happy to help.

3 or 4 years ago, this board was crazy. We had about 12 active members and half had experience (not including myself). Now its just Eric, me and Mike in Pittsburgh now and again. We'll keep it going.

Okay, I'II check the Kahler before bringing it in for installation.
Really hope its right the first time, since I'm in Canada takes a few days longer to get to me because of customs and what not.

madmike wrote:

And oh yeah ... happy to help.

3 or 4 years ago, this board was crazy. We had about 12 active members and half had experience (not including myself). Now its just Eric, me and Mike in Pittsburgh now and again. We'll keep it going.

Just remember MadMike, this place was always first and foremost about getting the information out there. I always knew that folks would come and go over time. But thank you for hanging in there! You and Amimbari!  

Al, we are here to help.  

@eric, yeah, I kinda miss the nonsence, comroddery and heated debates but we'll see how it gies with the new site.

@al. I'd like to see the look on the customs officers faces when they open this up for a look. "WTF is this thing!?!?"

Hahah,
"A bass tremolo? This is obviously ment to distract me from the drugs hidden in side the box somewhere"

Mike is gladly showing you pictures of headstocks with straight or angled strings - vs- a kahler. mine has never given me issues on 3 charvel heads I have them on. In fact 2 of them were never countersunk, just work since the body is pretty thick compared to the neck pocket so the saddle adjustments are good as-is without countersinking.


hey mike look what I found...


oh and Eric... thanks for the plug

A buddy of mine has that same model of Carvin with a Kahler on it.
Interesting looking pick up config on it.

Hey mike, you know I throw those things out there as solutions and things to look out for. They are not the say all, end all way it has to be. I've seen the craziest of things work but offer up my experience as a guide. I'm glad your basses stay in tune and I'm glad they were an easy install with minimal routing. This hasn't been my experience. I have yet to find a bass that was origanlly designed to work with a kahler and most basses I've seen with kahlers installed have had issues if only because people installed without thinking it thru.

Somewhere in this thread I told Al to topmount and see what he gets. If its not right, then to sink it.

So that Carvin V440. Did you buy it? How much? Any issues? Case? Sell it? How much?

oh Mike I know, just have to toss my 2 cents in there very now and then when it comes to angled strings.
I will say this and I never do just trying to prove the angled string point to tease you...., if the strings are old, it creaks in the nut and sticks badly if I pull up unless I graphite it heavily. if the strings are new it works correctly.

so AL, Mike is 100% correct on the "straighter" the strings thru the nut the better overall it is. I will never argue with him on that.

I think I might be the one to blame for the "straight/no angles" thing. I, too, have had nothing but bad luck with having headstock angles going off in different directions, and waxed poetic about this on many occasions, since it was based solely on my own personal experience.

But then, you came into the fold Mike/Amimbari to show us that it is possible to make an angled headstock work with a Kahler.

This is just one of the many things that make me glad I created this place, because I now get to benefit from Everyone else's experience.  

The 440. Is it yours mike? Ill trade basses, guitars, speakers, parts for it. Id even build something else for it.