hire an engineer?

ya know ... i shouldnt have to.

but .......

part of the reason i was so PO'ed at practices was because of all the work ill put into my rig only for one thing after another to not be right with it.

i'm suspecting that the 3 different crossovers i've had in the left rig at one time or another werent the right ones ... or set up right.

i could go to guitar center or sam ash and ask questions ... but they just want me to buy more hartke. "why would you want to install a crossover??? ... just buy the hartke VX system and blah blah blah ......."

i've just reached a point where, i'm grateful for everything i've learned over the last 10 years of ripping stuff apart and rebuilding bigger, better and stronger ... but i'm still not getting the results i'm looking for (and its getting expensive!)

expensive ... i talked to a sound engineer tonight for about 2 hours. i told him about what i've been doing and why ... and he actually understood! he immediately picked off where all my minute mistakes were and compounded to the problems that i'm having. i knew some of these things (like the frequencies where a crossover crosses over) were iffey ... but i just wasnt able to purchase or build the exact things that i needed. he said he'd engineer my rig, get the right parts, build the right components and install and rewire everything correctly ... for $80 / hr. he said ittl take him 2 hours tops.

ittl be nice to hit a D chord and my pants vibrate again.

then i started talking to him about the mesa stuff i was using the other day. we both agreed that mesa is the nicest gear on the market ... and very pricey. i talked to him about my sound, tone, versatility and level / rumble that i want and he told me that WE can build it without that mesa price.

it feeling like i've finally found a decent business associate who can give me the help i need. we'll see.

Sounds good, Bro. Keep us posted.

posting .......

spoke with paul today. not poking fun or putting him down ... just pointing out a sterotype that applies in this situation with him that is amusing. paul is a super geeky mouth breather. like spaz from revenge of the nerds. hey ... if he can build me great gear he can be as geeky as he wants.

anyhow ... learned some stuff.

anyone i had discussed crossovers with or purchased from had either misunderstood or witheld this information from me. did they just require me to learn this stuff the hard way?

2 way crossovers (and part of the reason to use them). the crossover handles the overall load of the system. example. if you have 2, 10" speakers configured to be a 8 ohm load and a high frequency driver at 8 ohms, not crossed over in parallel would be a 4 ohm load and not crossed over in series would be 16ohms.

wired with a 2 way crossover designed for 8 ohms, makes the load of the whole system (8 ohms of 10 inchers and 8 ohms of HF driver) 8 ohms. i know! does it go thru the crossover in series or parallel ??? neither? i doesnt matter. either way its either a 4 ohm or 16 ohm loads worth of drivers ... the crossover systems impedance is 8 ohms.

i dont know how they do this with a crossover ... ohms law is ohms law ... but a cab with a HF driver; this makes sense. factory cabs with a crossover are 4 or 8 ohms, with one, two or four speakers and a HF driver.

now heres the problem with my rig ...........

i have a 3 way crossover system. HF driver @ 8 ohms and 2X10" mid drivers @ 8 ohms in the top cab and a 15" @ 8 ohms in the bottom cab. running a 3 way crossover designed to be an 8 ohm load ... it doesnt matter from cab to cab; they arent wired in series or parallel ... the HF is wired to +- HF leads / the 10's to the +- mid leads / the 15" cab speakon to the top cabs speakon to the +- LF leads. even tho both cabs are an 8 ohm load (individually), when i run the 15" thru the crossover ... THE WHOLE RIG IS RUNNING @ 8 OHMS.

DOH!

again ... my amp is putting out 1200W @ 4 ohms ... i have 700W @ 8 ohms in the top cab and 600W @ 8 ohms in the 15. paralleled, this shud be 1300W @ 4 ohms. because of this crossover, its running 650W @ 8 ohms.

clipping dookie.

solution .........

i have the old 2 way ... it needs a fuse. since its rated for a lower wattage, i might go with a slightly larger value fuse. this makes the top cab 8 ohms .... parallel off that to the out.

low band pass ... i gotta look at the values i want to pass to the 15" ... 150 Hz? 250 Hz? i stink at determining frequency values ... i go by the thesile parameters of a speaker. a low pass at 8 ohms.

paralleled from one to the other gives me my 1300W @ 4 ohms

this makes sense on paper and is my understanding right now.

does it make sense to you?

just thought i'de pass on the knowledge to you all ... and i'll keep you up to date.

Personally, I'm not a user of crossovers, as I would rather just drive each speaker combo with it's own amp. But from what you said, and from what little I understand about crossovers, it sounds good to me. My only concern is your wanting to use a larger fuse in your 2-way crossover. Just be careful that you aren't exceeding the power limits of the crossover, OK? I mean, you can put a 500 watt fuse into a unit, whatever it is....crossover, power amp, etc., but that only means that the fuse won't blow until you exceed that power level. The problem is that, in the process, you might end up frying the component you are trying to protect, especially if it's only rated to handle something like 250 watts.

Again, I am NOT an expert on this sort of thing, so I might be blowing smoke out my arse. I'm just trying to default on the side of caution. Not that I normally do with my own gear, but for what it's worth, I just don't want to see your gear go up in smoke.

KERPLOW!

i havent blown anything up in a while ... it has its own character to it (untill it costs more money).

furreal, that makes sense eric. i think what the fuse protects is the HF driver ... and thats 90W.

and again ... not something i'm experienced on ... thus, i'll let the engineer do it.

my agruement for crossovers ... i'm just trying to get the most out of the frequencies that the speakers are designed for. if 10's are punping a lot of low end, the highs will get drowned out. if the 15 is putting out mids and highs then its sucking power from lows.

i also agree with having an amp for each speaker configuration if thats available ... then i could just eq for the best tones from each.

this rig sat down in this guys shop for 3 weeks. he originally told me he could turn it around in 2 days. after a week i called him and he told me the same tech stuff he told me when i dropped it off. same thing again after two weeks .... blah blah blah, crossover frequencies, blah blah, chek wiring blah blah, its correct (i know its correct bonehead), blah blah blah.

now ... after 3 weeks i still haddent heard from him. i expected him to call me and say, "hey, your rigs done ... it knocks over children its so loud now.", but no call.

i called him again and he gave me the same tech speech that he did when i dropped it off .... and that basically means to me that he did nothing.

me, "YOU HAVENT DONE ANYTHING YEAT HAVE YOU!?!?!?!?!"

bonehead, "well ... i chekd the wiring and its correct."

i left work and went down and picked it up. i gave it the once over to make sure he didnt break anything. he handed me an invoice for $58 for his time. i counted cash out of my pocket and threw it in his face ... and had some not so nice words. he threatened to call the police and blah blah blah. i told him to go ahead ... i'de kinda like my $58 bucks back. i threw my rig in the station wagon and drove home.

when i got home, i was gonna pop a speaker out, to see what he messed with, make sure everything was sound and because i just gotta rebuild these things when i find the correct crossovers. ......................................

there are supposed to be 8 bolts going into T nuts in the inside holding each speaker in. SOP, ya know? each speaker was held in by 3 and 4 bolts, the cabinet was full of dismounted T nuts and i'm just infuriated. this bonehead doesnt even know how to properly mount a speaker. if you put a bolt in and it doesnt grab into threads ... you pushed the T nut out. your not bolting to anything and you need to pull the speaker and go fetch the T nut and try again ... LAZY!

he pulled all the dampening insulation out of the back to chek the crossover wiring and didnt re - attach it ... it was just flopping around inside the cabinet.

he stripped the screws holding the grille on the front.

... and on the invoice he recommended a low - pass for the 15" @ 1.6kHz ... there is no such thing (at least not that i have found ... closest is 800Hz).

i've gotten to the point where i'm just POed that there is no general help or information on technicals for bassists. hasent anyone written a book on bass rigs??? the majority of information that i know is mostly from copycat stuff and expensive trial and error. no one (who really does know) will help.

i'm thinking of writing a book ... but with how expensive my trial and error has been and how rude most people are when i ask questions ... i really dont wanna give the information up unless you pay me $500 for the book.

i would really like to find some employment where its expected for me to be overpaid for my laziness, unfulfilled commitments, incompetence, apathy and general overall uselessness. "hi! i'm a useless, slobbenly dumbass ... gimmie money!" you will never see behavior, customer service or crappy product like this come outta my shop!

i'm POed that the majority of information out there is fudged numbers and hokey gimmics to entice bass players to buy their company's inferior crap, or retail enterprises who either dont care that your not buying the correct equipment that you need or dont care that they are selling you crap ... just as long as your buying it.



AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

I haven't read all of this conversation, so pardon me if I'm missing a point, here...

I've seen some in-depth discussions about this kind of thing between some incredibly knowledgeable people on TB such as Bill Fitzmaurice and Greenboy. If their DIY cab designs aren't the answer, maybe if you talked to them about your tone-quest, they would be able to help you out personally or steer you in the direction of information or other people who can offer help. They appear to be reputable engineers and businessmen who are frustrated by the same things you are.

yyyyyyyyyaaaaaaahhh!

thanx boots. some affirmative direction.

i'll seek those cats out.

and no ... you didnt miss the point. i'm just a generally overall dissatisfied customer. at this point in the game, i find that i can do most simple things better myself and am tired of crap being marketed to me. i expect better and am willing to pay ... but i keep getting fed more crap.