String tension pulling arm down

Hi everyone.  I just registered as I am having a little trouble setting up my Kahler 7410 on my current bass build.  It seems that when I tune the bass, the string tension is pulling the arm down against the body of the bass.  If I adjust the cam adjust allen screw, it lifts the arm up, but them I can't push the arm down to lower the pitch of the strings, only up.

I'm assuming this is the cam adjustment screw:



I've ordered another spring, thinking that the additional spring will offer enough tension.  Or should I be using strings with less tension?  Lighter gauge?  Heavier gauge?

Thanks in advance for any advise and suggestions.

Wow. Really? And this is standard tuning I'm guessing?

How springs are currently on it?

hip63

hip63 wrote:

Wow. Really? And this is standard tuning I'm guessing?

How springs are currently on it?

hip63

Yes, standard tuning, and it has the supplied 2 springs. I ordered another one, thinking that may solve the issue. It just seems strange that the supplied dual springs wouldn't do the job, unless I've set it up incorrectly.

Hey mapleglo, Welcome! I remember seeing you in a thread on talkbass about bass tremolos.
I'm afraid I can't offer much technical advice, Eric can help you with that but I can tell you that he recommends using three springs instead of the two Kahler provides.
Both mine only came with two, the luither who installed my Kahlers used Kahler guitar springs for my center spring.

My 2400 only has two springs and works fine, I'm thinking that maybe the two original springs are weak and need to be replaced?

hip63

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I did post about tremolos on the talk bass forum, and have finally come to the point of my build where I installed the bridge, and have run across this issue. I have a new set of springs on order. It's a new bridge, so I don't imagine the springs are weak, but I suppose it's possible. I'll add a third spring when they come in, and try it again. Are there any suggestions about what strings to use, perhaps a set that features lower tension, or should pretty much any strings work?

what stringgauge  are you using? with just two springs it probably wont hold the cam paralell with the frame with a set of 45-105..
I use 3 guitar springs on my tremolos,and that works fine.With the tension adjuster even with the cam,you'll need between 6 to 9 complete turns.

Hans

Hans wrote:

what stringgauge  are you using? with just two springs it probably wont hold the cam paralell with the frame with a set of 45-105..
I use 3 guitar springs on my tremolos,and that works fine.With the tension adjuster even with the cam,you'll need between 6 to 9 complete turns.

Hans

I'm not sure what the gauge is, but the strings came from my 2011 Fender MIM Precision. They seem like "standard" gauge to me.

I put on a third spring today, and I'm still experiencing the same issue. Should I go for a lighter string gauge? What settings can I change on the bridge itself? Perhaps it's just not setup correctly? The tech people at Wammi World were not very helpful. It seemed we were talking in circles.

Here's a closeup of the bridge with the strings tunes to standard tuning (EADG).  The string tension is pulling the bridge almost all the way forward.

Maybe try tuning it to DGCF just to see if the Kahler behaves normally.
Might give some insight to the problem. Sorry I'm not of more help technically.
Maybe check out this video for anything you might have missed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3E7etL3cAQ

Tuning it down to BEAD allows the arm to ride about an inch above the body. The bridge works fine, though the strings sound terrible.

OK, I'm an idiot. Thanks for the link to the video. I adjusted the spring tension, and that solved the issue. It's now tuned to standard tuning and it's working. Thanks for all your help!

Awesome! Glad you got it working!

Don't run off now! Show us the bass!  

hip63   

Shoot! Did I ever arrive late to this party!   I am only just now getting to this thread.

Thanks Guys for jumping in to help Mapleglo solve the problem.   

Ah, sorry for the "fly-by" posting.  The bass is currently apart as I'm doing final sanding in preparation for finishing.  Here's a pic before I took it apart.



And before I had the Controls on:



I have a build thread going on over on TalkBass in the Luthier's Corner under "Leafenbacker".  I don't know if I can post a link.  Let me know

Do you mean, if you have permission to post a link back to TB? Sure.   

VERY nice Ric version! Wow! I can't wait to see it once you get the finish done! Also, we would all love to see some video of you playing this beauty once it's all finished.

And kudos to you for the straight string runs on the headstock. A standard Ric has the A and D strings going off at angles. The fact that your bass does not have these angles will only help keep your bass in tune with the Kahler. Bravo!   

WOW that is awesome!
Like a Lemmy Rickenbacker with a Kahler!

EricHaven wrote:

Do you mean, if you have permission to post a link back to TB? Sure.   

VERY nice Ric version! Wow! I can't wait to see it once you get the finish done! Also, we would all love to see some video of you playing this beauty once it's all finished.

And kudos to you for the straight string runs on the headstock. A standard Ric has the A and D strings going off at angles. The fact that your bass does not have these angles will only help keep your bass in tune with the Kahler. Bravo!   

Thanks, here's a link to the build thread. It's pretty long…
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/leafenbacker.1040655/

Because of the recommendations of better results with straight string paths, mostly from reading through this forum, I went with a modified headstock.

Alexander wrote:

WOW that is awesome!
Like a Lemmy Rickenbacker with a Kahler!

Thanks! Yes, based on Lemmy's Ric, but it seemed so radical, it was calling out for a tremolo

Finished pics:







More over on the TalkBass thread.

Amazing!!!

Alexander wrote:

Amazing!!!

Thanks!

Wow, wow, WOW!   Now THAT is an awesome machine!

EricHaven wrote:

Wow, wow, WOW!   Now THAT is an awesome machine!

Thank you!

By the way, I'm finding that the tremolo arm is positioned in such a way that it gets in the way of my picking hand. I play with a pick most of the time, and rest the meat of my hand on the bridge. I'll likely end up making some kind of extension piece that moves the arm toward the rear, unless someone makes something like that already, or there is some other solution. Any ideas?

Do you leave the bar in the position it is in the picture?
If you do, have you considered loosing the bar so its not stiff and hangs loose and out of the way? Can just reach down and grab it when you need it.

Alexander wrote:

Do you leave the bar in the position it is in the picture?
If you do, have you considered loosing the bar so its not stiff and hangs loose and out of the way? Can just reach down and grab it when you need it.

It's not so much the position of the bar, as it is where the bar comes out of the bridge.  My hand sits across the bridge, and with the bar coming out of the bridge where it does, that's what gets in the way.

Ahh now I know what you mean and now I feel like a idiot for not realizing it before haha.
Yeah that is a tough one... not too sure what to suggest I'm afraid.

So this is the proposed fix for the tremolo bar positioning.  I can polish up the aluminum to make it fit in better aesthetically, or have it chrome plated.  This position is much better.

Thats awesome! Good thinking!
Happy you found something that works for you.
There seems to be no limit to your creativeness!

Mapleglo, methinks you might have some sort of marketing opportunity here with your mod. I'd be willing to bet there are others that you like to have something similar on their axe.

Did you machine that piece yourself? If not, who did? Either way, great work!

EricHaven wrote:

Mapleglo, methinks you might have some sort of marketing opportunity here with your mod. I'd be willing to bet there are others that you like to have something similar on their axe.

Did you machine that piece yourself? If not, who did? Either way, great work!

Thanks, yes, I cut it from a small sheet of aluminum. I'm not 100% sold on the shape - it kinda looks like an "F". I may play around with that to see what else I can come up with. I'm also working on a flatter arm. The supplied one sticks up too far. So yeah, it's still a work in progress.

hi mapleglo. nice to make your acquaintance. my apologies ... i been away from BTF for a while now.

so i have some time and wanted to touch bass    with eric and mike and everyone else and .........

WHAMMO! chek out that ric - o - tremster! that bass looks awesome! nice build.

glad you resolved your springs issue and also digging your giant F for an alt arm placement ... great idea!

madmike wrote:

hi mapleglo. nice to make your acquaintance. my apologies ... i been away from BTF for a while now.

so i have some time and wanted to touch bass    with eric and mike and everyone else and .........

WHAMMO! chek out that ric - o - tremster! that bass looks awesome! nice build.

glad you resolved your springs issue and also digging your giant F for an alt arm placement ... great idea!

Nice to meet you too, madmike!

Thank you for your kind words about my bass

I've been using it at band practice for the past couple of months, and it's quickly become my favorite bass. I dare say, that I like it better than my Ric 4003. I've been using it without the tremolo arm as I'm still working out the "F" arm bracket. A few other projects have taken priority, like the refinish on my SVT810e cabinet, and my pedal board. At the very least, using it as I have, quieted my concerns about the stability of the Kahler bridge - it is rock solid, and I have no tuning issue whatsoever. Hope to get back to the arm placement resolution soon.

might i ask ....

did you build this bass from scratch ... from laminating maple together and routing it out for the neck thu and then do all the carving, start with a kit or start with a ric?

do you do builds and / or refinishes regularly?

madmike wrote:

might i ask ....

did you build this bass from scratch ... from laminating maple together and routing it out for the neck thu and then do all the carving, start with a kit or start with a ric?

do you do builds and / or refinishes regularly?

I bought the neck-thru neck from Carvin, and bought the oak leaf/acorn inlays from a cabinet supply shop, but everything else I made, including winding my own pickups. I linked to the build thread on TalkBass in an earlier post if you'd like to see the build from the start. This was my second build.

Wow! That's nice!

hip63

hip63 wrote:

Wow! That's nice!

hip63

Thanks!