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 The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)

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EricHaven
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PostSubject: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:15 pm

The process has begun. Yep. Finally!

So Andy and I have been working together to make this a reality. I cannot tell you how grateful I am to have his experience on hand, because it is paying off in spades. Here is where we are now.

First of all, we both observed that the 7410 bridge wasn't quite returning to pitch all the way. So Andy did two things. First of all, he added a longer/larger cam set-screw so we could get more tension on the springs. And secondly, he added brass stops to the bottom of the trem so it would settle on the bottom of the pocket. So the bar only drops, but does not pull up (which is fine, since I never pull up anyways). Andy took this with his phone, so it came out fuzzy, but I think you get the idea:



Now....for the moment you've all been waiting for (well, one of them, at any rate). The top lock. Yes. I mean a bass top lock. Feast your eyes:



I can hear the questions already. Laughing I'll cover what I can, and let me know if you're curious about anything else. The nut itself is machined from brass, and Andy decided to make the inserts from bronze. You'll notice the string bar. That's there to level out the string paths as they go into the nut.

With no fine tuners, it took a bit of doing to get the bass in tune. But after a few patient minutes, tune it did.

"SO???? How does it work???" Laughing Let me try and paint a picture for ya'll. One that has been over two decades of me dreaming.

It works PERFECTLY!

Divebombing the bar is obscene. There is no other word for it. With the bar bottomed out, the E. A, and D strings hang off the neck like wet spaghetti. Just like a Floyd Rose on a guitar, and complete with the strings suddenly attaching themselves to the pole pieces on the pickup. The G string, being the highest tension string doesn't quite hang off the neck, but the note drops almost a complete octave.

"But does it stay in tune???"

Yes it does. Wink

Even the most violent array of divebombs and trem torture can't pull it out of tune. I beat the crap out of that thing for 15 minutes. Every single time, it came back perfectly in tune.

cheers

And if that wasn't enough, Andy has a working proof-of-concept for adding fine tuners to the Kahler (yessir....read that again....ADDING FINE TUNERS TO THE KAHLER) to overcome any tuning difficulties. He is so worked up about it, he won't even tell me how he is going to do this. All he will say is "Dude....it WILL work!"

You know, I've had to listen to a lot of doubters over the years about being able to do this. "That won't work on a bass/it can't be done/been tried but failed"....blah, blah, blah, blah, blah....nonsense. It does work. And one of the biggest things for me is that I always knew it could be done, and how it would behave. When I first dropped the bar, and the strings fell off the neck, only to return in tune, I literally almost cried. I am not joking, either.

And you can bet your arses that once we get this whole thing completely dialed in, we are going to patent the idea, and it will be made available to the public.

And yes, we will have video soon to show you that we're not just blowing smoke here.

Any questions? Cool

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:55 pm

okay....serial production starts when? What a Face

looks gorgeous man!!! i´ll excitedly observe the further process of adding the fine tuners on the kahler.
the headstock is fenderish straight, huh? not angled... so it´s suggestive to use a stringbar here, because of the high string tension?

can´t await some more pics and vids right now!
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:04 pm

so when can I get this on my 7410?
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:24 pm

Basszupfer & Bootsox, LOL! Laughing Production will begin once Andy and I completely dial this in. We want to make certain this is going to be user-friendly for different players. I won't lie to you Guys. This is going to involve a bit of work for anyone wanting to go this route, so we want to streamline it as much as possible to make it accessible to whomever wants to do this. We are hoping to be able to offer this to players by Spring. Remember that this is involves modifications to the Kahler, so what we might do is offer a service to have folks send us their trems to have Andy do the work. And if anyone wants him to install the nut as well, that would involve sending the bass to him/us here in Washington. But since we already have generated a bit of interest in this, we might go ahead and make this a full-blown thing. We are even considering a custom trem design from the ground up.

I will definitely keep you Guys posted as to new developments. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:00 pm

I really like the brass stops. I always have to give thec trem that little tug up to get everything back in tune. A true home as a stop with the tension resting on it eliminates that.

Im doing a fender jazz neck now that I dont suspect will stay in tune due to the angles. Locking plates .... hmmmmmm. You got my brain going.
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:21 pm

The locking nut was just the first step. We needed to verify that having a top lock would produce the dramatic results I was after, plus stay in tune. It exceeded our expectations by a mile! So now, the next step is to get the fine-tuning aspect completely nailed down, and Andy is extremely close to making this happen. We didn't want to settle on an old-style Floyd Rose thing where tuning is a bear. No, this has to be a complete solution just like what guitarists have, and we are just about there!

We are getting together tomorrow to work out the final aspects of the design. I am already getting requests from all over the globe! This is gonna be HUGE!!! cheers

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:37 am

"Available upgrade on PXR basses!" would be nice. Im thinking of making 2 or 3 models and going "inc." in the next year.
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:52 am

subscribed!! study this is awesome!!
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:00 am

Very nice Eric!

Great stuff! I really like how easy the concept of the bottomed out cam against the brass blocks works.

About the finetuners: If it does already stay in tune as perfect as you say, adding finetuners to the design may perhaps add tuning issues if the tuner is not well made, just saying this if you and Andy didn't think of this. Although I ofcourse hope this all works out!

Very nice modifications!

So, already filing patents with Andy? Perhaps a Madmike installation and dealership upcoming? Selling HavenTrems on the upcoming basstremolofanatics site? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:17 pm

Thanks, Jim! Wink

The reason for the fine tuners is that when you clamp the strings down, they tend to go a bit sharp. This was why Floyd Rose developed the fine tuning bridge, since the very first Floyds were toplock only, and you had to do this little dance to get the guitar in tune that basically involved tuning the strings just slightly flat, and hoping that when you tightened the clamps, the strings were in tune. Yes, the bass can get into tune (and it stays there), but it takes a few minutes of adjusting and readjusting to get the balance right, and I don't want to have to do that. And if folks wish to, they can get the toplock only, as I reckon we will sell a lot of custom orders.

Oh, speaking of, we will most definitely be selling the finished product! Laughing The question is whether or not we will be making retrofit kits for existing Kahlers, or if we will create our own unique design from the ground up.

I managed to get my hands on an older 2410, and Andy and I are going to use this unit to nail down the fine tuner design.

Stay tuned! Cool

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:28 pm

I was on the toilet today, because that's where I do my best thinking, and was contemplating this design. One thing I realized is that if you omit the locking nut, those brass stops will allow you to use a hipshot xtender in conjunction with your Kahler tremolo without the other strings going sharp. It might be worth having a setup like that.
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:34 pm

bootsox wrote:
I was on the toilet today, because that's where I do my best thinking, and was contemplating this design. One thing I realized is that if you omit the locking nut, those brass stops will allow you to use a hipshot xtender in conjunction with your Kahler tremolo without the other strings going sharp. It might be worth having a setup like that.

Porcelain engineering at its brightest moments. king

Yes, I agree. Someone looking for this kind of setup it would work fantastic!
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:17 pm

You want to hear something funny about that? After Andy installed the stops, I went "Oh! So now my Hipshot detuner can be installed!"

He just looked at me and went "Eric....think about that for a minute".

scratch

It took me a few seconds to remember the toplock, which would make the Hipshot detuner useless. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:44 am

EricHaven wrote:
You want to hear something funny about that? After Andy installed the stops, I went "Oh! So now my Hipshot detuner can be installed!"

He just looked at me and went "Eric....think about that for a minute".

scratch

It took me a few seconds to remember the toplock, which would make the Hipshot detuner useless. Laughing
See, I would have completely forgotten about the toplock if I hadn't thought of it while I was on the throne. It really is the best place to think.
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:32 am

Brilliant! I should have thought about that! Yes, without the toplock that would be a great possibility.

I see the potential of Erics trem system growing! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:08 am

Jim wrote:
Brilliant! I should have thought about that! Yes, without the toplock that would be a great possibility.

I see the potential of Erics trem system growing! Razz

Wink

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:09 am

You made an excellent point, Boots. The stops would enable the Hipshot detuner to work perfectly with the Kahler. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:02 pm

So my band played a gig last night in Mt Vernon, WA. This was to be the first time using my four-banger Romulus with the locking nut in front of a crowd.

It performed flawlessly. The dive bombs were stupid-sick, and the trem came back perfectly in tune every single time.

Andy is still making refinements to the fine tuning system, so that will be a bit more time. This is especially true since Zakk Wylde (who Andy tech'ed for in the '90's) asked him to come play in his band for the filming of Zakk's new DVD in March. So, obviously, Andy will be a little pre-occupied for a bit. Laughing But he will be back in early March, and he will then pick up where he left off on the fine tuners.

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:05 pm

Another update. Andy is home now, and has just about put the finishing touches on the fine tuning bridge. We will get together this week so he can install it, and then I can give it a proper workout. We have a gig this coming Saturday, and the hope is that I can test it onstage. Stay tuned. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:38 pm

how did this go?
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PostSubject: Re: The quest for a locking bass trem....AND WE'RE GETTING THERE! ;-)   Wed Aug 19, 2015 4:03 pm

Bootsox, it works pretty good. The only problem is that, without fine tuners on the bridge, it takes a long time to get everything settled and clamped down. So I modified my tuners to be locking keys instead, and I will post pictures of this soon. Wink

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