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 old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay

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amimbari

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PostSubject: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:21 pm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Gold-Kahler-Bass-Tremolo-/140860070391?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item20cbea19f7

if it has no bids towards the end I'm gonna buy it just to buy it.

2 days 20 hours as of 420 EST 10-3-2012

and if you really, really want one already mounted on something old...
and this guy has a hipshot detuner on it?????

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guild-Model-SB608-Flying-Star-Bass-w-HSC-Kahler-Tremolo-/190734527968?pt=Guitar&hash=item2c68a9ede0
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:13 pm

amimbari wrote:
If it has no bids towards the end I'm gonna buy it just to buy it.

Shoot....if it were chrome, I'd buy it just to get the longer arm!

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:55 am

if I win it I'll trade you arms and you can have andy paint it black?

the arms are bent for righty so for me they are kinda useless for me short/long, it don't matter...
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:24 am

It is very disturbing to me that two people here on the forum now appear to be arms dealers Shocked

Hope the CIA doesn't come after you guys!
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:28 am

FBI first, CIA later....
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:46 am

about the arms..
Hipshot now uses the same arms as the old Kahlers. all you need to do is cut threads on them :-)
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:49 am

since I dont have a tap-set to do that, it might be just as easy to have someone take rod material, bend it, thread it and say here you go for xxx dollars in the length ti want Smile
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:51 am

well...bending stainless steel is not necessary simple...
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:10 pm

ya well I had a righty bar bent to lefty and the guy didnt create a stress crack ( I got lucky )
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:26 pm

Hans wrote:
about the arms..
Hipshot now uses the same arms as the old Kahlers. all you need to do is cut threads on them :-)

Shocked

Are you sure, Hans? Meaning, they are the same length as the old arms were?

I agree that bending stainless is a pain, but how about cutting new threads? Can you just do it on the bar as-is, or do you have to treat it somehow first?

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sat Oct 06, 2012 12:39 pm

OK, I answered my own questions, and I just ordered some trem arms from Hipshot. I have a pro tap and die set at work, so cutting the threads will be cake.

Soooo....big question....what size is the thread on a Kahler bass arm?

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:09 pm

can you ask wammi-j?
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 07, 2012 4:50 am

1/4 UNF Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:47 am

1/4 UNF?

Universal Nautical Furlong?

in my years of machining, i never saw that thread count description. quick search on the googster, i couldnt find it. ok another search ... in means "fine" and its an european standard.

first search .......

http://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-information/Measuring/TPIandPitch.aspx

heres the UNF thing .....

http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-tap-standard.htm

i have also seen the ASE standards fastener "bible". its around 800 pages .... but we need something that works here, not a physics course. there are extensive descriptions, designations and variations for different materials, different applications and different types of threads. i dont know about you guys, but i dont have time for that, nor do i have taps and dies for all that, so i think its about finding a standard.

for standards on this board, lets stick to SAE, because kahlers are made in america.

your first measurement is diameter. i put the calipers on the kahler arm at the finish and threaded section. i got .247 and .244 respectively ... close enuff ... its 1/4".

now, i agree with the UNF thing, but again, dont know what the N stands for. according to the chart 1/4" UNF is 28 threads per inch and thats how the SAE measurements are described ... threads per inch (TPI). i cant sit there and count how many threads per inch were on the kahler arm, but i did look at it ... it seems that it was more than 20 ... and there are two standard designations, UNC (20 TPI) and UNF (28 TPI). nuts and bolts do have the tendency to fly across the atlantic and engineers have spent countless hours to get fasteners down to a standard as to not drive themselves and everyone else crazy, so ide go with the consistency .... i believe its more than coincidence. i'de also bet a ham sandwidge that the die set eric has isnt in UNF. ittl be in specs that are diameter - TPI.

eric ... the next thing i would do is find a standard nut and bolt set or go to a hardware store and run nuts over the kahler arm threads to determine its size and TPI. start with the 1/4" sizes ... its probably 1/4 - 28 ... i think the 1/4 - 20 is too coarse for this thread. i mean ... this is just a guess, i may be wrong, because you wont know for sure untill you try to run a nut over the threads and are certain. please be certian, because of normal wear, the kahler arms have enuff "machine slop" play already. also because you dont wanna cut a thread and it be wrong ... i hate that. as far as my experience, most 1/4" threads are either 1/4-20 or 1/4-28. again, theres the "bible" and it could be something thats more defined and complicated, but i dont see any reason kahler would do that ... unless they had some kind of engineering hurdle to jump or wanted to go out and buy something other than standard taps just to make us crazy.

when you determine the correct size, find the correct die and cut away.

i'm gonna see if i can find some kahler documentation ............

when your sure ... cut away.

so much for a simple answer ... right?

please post what you find eric, so we can post something that is a definite ... i'll see what i find too when i get a minute.
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:22 am

uh oh ..........

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2047384-Help!-Which-diameter-for-a-Kahler-trem-arm

chek all the way at the bottom; last thread entry by the bat boy. not to mention all the thread entries that are everything except the answer to doods question ... so no, no affirmative confirmation on the kahler arm threads.

"they cant put it on the internet unless its the truth."
"who told you that?"
"the internet."
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:38 am

this is driving me insane.

very few way what it "is" and even fewer agree.

i will go find out today.
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:48 pm

Funny that you found that thread MadMike, because I tripped upon it yesterday after what Hans posted about the Hipshot arms. But I think the thread refers to the Kahler guitar trem arms, and not the bass arms.

I'll send an email to Wammi J to see if he knows. And I will also take up your suggestion MadMike, and go into a hardware store with the arms to do some investigating. I will definitely post what I find.

Hans, can you clarify what 1/4 UNF might translate into for American standards?

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:52 pm

Oops....spoke too soon about the thread. From Wammi J's site:

Fulcrum / Bass arm

Fits these models: All Kahler Bass tremolos and all Kahler/Floyd Rose fulcrum models such as the 2720 Spyder, 2700 Series (same as 2710 Killer), 2760 Steeler or 2500/2520 Traditional fulcrum. These are the original arms that came stock on all 80's fulcrum (2 post) guitar tremolos and all bass tremolos during the 1980's to present.


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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:39 am

EricHaven wrote:
Funny that you found that thread MadMike, because I tripped upon it yesterday after what Hans posted about the Hipshot arms. But I think the thread refers to the Kahler guitar trem arms, and not the bass arms.

I'll send an email to Wammi J to see if he knows. And I will also take up your suggestion MadMike, and go into a hardware store with the arms to do some investigating. I will definitely post what I find.

Hans, can you clarify what 1/4 UNF might translate into for American standards?

Yeah ... thats the only way to know for sure.

1/4 unf is 1/4-28 sae.
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:00 am

I found something that might help.

UNF stands for unified national fine

UNF 1/4" = 28 windings per inch, bore size 5.5 (it gave no units on the bore size, but since it says 1/4" I guess the 5.5 is in mm, I also found some varying numbers on this)

I did find those measurements on a dutch pdf from a company. I had to translate the windings per inch and bore size from dutch, so I hope it makes sense.

Perhaps searching further might deliver clearer data on the bore...
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:24 pm

Very Happy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_fine_thread
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:09 pm

Cool! Thanks, Guys! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:32 pm

So I got the Hipshot arms today (and my apologies for the blatant hijack of this thread, but this is important).

Blech. Sad

They are, in fact, not the same size as the Kahler arms. They are smaller.

Hans, where did you hear they were the same size?

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:32 pm

Hi Eric !
What did you get??
I bought a Hipshot 5 string tremolo on Ebay last year,and an extra arm to go with it and both arms were 1/4 " stainess steel. Both arms are swept like the new Kahler arms,but are an inch longer making them the same lenght as the old Kahler arms. All I had to do was cut threads on them
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:40 pm

Here is a photo...The Hipshot arm is actually longer than the Kahler arm

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:52 am

Eric ... i wonder if a helicoil would work. I hate rigging and adding to, but a decent helicoil and you can match any thread.

Eric is getting the threading 101.

Uuuuh, that attitude. I couldnt get a kahler to intonate correctly on a m plus that i converted to an ltd. That is a yamaha, right?
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:59 am

Yes,it is a Yamaha Attitude Custom
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:02 am

And what a beast of a bass it is! Wink

Hans, I ordered the Hipshot arms straight from Hipshot, and they sent me the old-style thin arms with the tip handles. Sad

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 14, 2012 8:52 am

Here is a Rondo 5 string jazz bass with the same arm


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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:54 pm

I just sent an email to Hipshot to see if I can exchange the older, smaller arms they sent me with the newer, larger arms.

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:50 pm

Alrighty then. A rep from Hipshot told me to send the smaller arms back in exchange for the newer ones. And I lucked out, in that my boss used to own a machinist shop, and has offered to help me get the threads cut on the new arms. cheers


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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Fri Oct 19, 2012 1:03 pm

there you go..... a little shipping return and you get what you want.
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:18 pm

And indeed, I have! cheers

The new arms arrived today, and true to what Hans has discovered, they are indeed the same diameter as the Kahler arms, but much longer. So tomorrow will be the task of cutting the threads, and I'm good to go!

SO....what does this mean, Folks? It means that if you want to add longer arms to your Kahlers, you can order them from Hipshot....but....in order to avoid the conundrum I had, you might want to let them know that you are after the newer 1/4" arms, and not the older smaller arms.

And the thread size is 1/4-28 UNF, again, just as Hans observed.

Thank you Hans for bringing this to our attention! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:33 am

anyone want a never used black 2410.....lol?
even the bag with the template and instructions are still sealed.



j/k this is going on my explorer eventually but the silver one will be up for grabs.
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:08 pm

Hi Eric
Did the new arms work out?
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:19 pm

Hey there Hans!

Yep! Like a charm! cheers I cannot believe just how far down my Kahlers drop with the longer arms! Thanks again for the tip!

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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:06 pm

amimbari wrote:
anyone want a never used black 2410.....lol?
even the bag with the template and instructions are still sealed.



j/k this is going on my explorer eventually but the silver one will be up for grabs.


exacty THIS one (but in chrome) would be the perfectly trem for my rickenfaker.....forward saddles!!!
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PostSubject: Re: old KAHLER 2400 ( not a 2410 ) on the bay   Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:36 am

that is a 2400 not a 2410. I made a mistake when I posted the title, but ya forward saddles.
Too bad you want a chrome cause I will never use it and would sell it to you. These are not so common like the rear-saddle.
Ask MadMike if this style would work for you.
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