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 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)

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echoSE7EN

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PostSubject: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:44 pm

I've been tooling around this site, the Kahler site, and the Web in general for the past couple of days looking for information as to the overall build quality of the newer 2415 vs. the Kahler trems of the 80s. I talked to one Kahler owner who has both an 80s trem on one bass, and a newer Kahler on another and he says that the older Kahler (the 80s version) far exceeds the newer models.

I believe, if my digging is correct, that I'll need a newer Kahler (should I decide to go this route) as the build is a 5-er, and I want 18mm string spacing. But this is really moot at this point....Users of the 80s Kahlers that have also owned, or currently own a newer Kahler bass trem --- what is your overall opinion of the newer stuff Mr. Kahler and Co., are producing?

Any experience/advice/opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

D.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:24 am

I have both. As far as quality, adjustments and playability. I could never see any difference.
The new versions have adjustable string claws which the old ones lacked. It is better because the old ones you could adjust the spacing, but then the strings would be on an angle as they passed thru the rollers. The new ones are adjustable so each string is str8 as an arrow going thru the rollers.
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echoSE7EN

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:41 am

amimbari wrote:
I have both. As far as quality, adjustments and playability. I could never see any difference.
The new versions have adjustable string claws which the old ones lacked. It is better because the old ones you could adjust the spacing, but then the strings would be on an angle as they passed thru the rollers. The new ones are adjustable so each string is str8 as an arrow going thru the rollers.


Thanks for the response. I emailed the folks at Kahler and hadn't heard back yet. Ironically, I was watching a YouTube video of Garth Fielding playing a 25-year-old Ibanez that had been outfitted with a Kahler and posted a comment (asking about the build quality). A Kahler rep responded within an hour. It seems Social Media channels may be the way to get a quick answer from them; and yes, the adjustable string claws were mentioned in their response. If I may ask, your newer 2xxx series bridge comprises which materials? I've seen that they supposedly allow a customer to choose, but I see no options on the site -- unless it's a phone call required procedure. A list of the various materials available was floating around one of the sites I visited, if memory serves. Regardless, thanks for your input!


D.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:47 am

you mean the newer 74xx series, and I only know that the old-vs-new seem to be the same weight, same brass, same....uh, everything beyond the new style adj. claws and the frame that holds the cam.

If the newer 7415 is what you want for a 5stringer, then ya, you'd have to buy it from wammiworld.com who is also a member of this forum and a kahler dealer for many many years. he also sells his stuff on ebay if that is your choice of purchase places.

Eric who runs the board is much more into the workings of the 2 units and will probably find this thread sooner or later.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:22 pm

amimbari wrote:
you mean the newer 74xx series, and I only know that the old-vs-new seem to be the same weight, same brass, same....uh, everything beyond the new style adj. claws and the frame that holds the cam.

If the newer 7415 is what you want for a 5stringer, then ya, you'd have to buy it from wammiworld.com who is also a member of this forum and a kahler dealer for many many years. he also sells his stuff on ebay if that is your choice of purchase places.

Eric who runs the board is much more into the workings of the 2 units and will probably find this thread sooner or later.


I was referring to the newer 2xxx series vs. the units from the 80s (e.g. pre-golf club era). I can speak to the robustness of the 80s Kahler system as I once owned one, but since I haven't touched a post-2005 Kahler, I was hoping for input from folks that have experience with both. I've come across information regarding "older" 5-ers that seem to be a 4-string tremolo frame with an extra saddle added (Kahler's site also shows a video doing this). I would not want to go this route as the minimum spacing I'd ever want at the bridge would be 18mm. It seems to me that the "extra saddle" 4-er gets around 16.5mm? Again, this was just a number I saw over at TB.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 12:46 pm

there's a thread here somewhere talking about that I think SPYDER was asking the same thing . but ya very narrow when you do that your fingers would be fumbling around for a while. IF you could ever get used to it.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:08 pm

You've come to the right place, Echo. Wink

I got my very first Kahler back in 1984, and I've owned probably more than a dozen since then. I usually drone on too much about things, so I am going to really try to keep it short and sweet. Remember that I'm only speaking from my experience, and opinions will vary. But for what it's worth, here goes.

Comparisons? Hardly a difference. Performance-wise, they are equal. And as Mike/Amimbari pointed out, having the adjustable claws on the 7410's makes a huge difference.

My understanding (and I could be wrong about this) is that the 2400's being sold on the main Kahler site are more handmade, whereas the 7410's are more machined. I did once hear a rumor that the 7410's had aluminum in them, but this was shot down pretty quickly. From what I know, they are still brass and steel.

You are correct about the old 2415's being basically a four-string with an added saddle. This is why Kahler opted to go with the much-larger frame for their fivers and sixers. The old fivers were extremely narrow, and you had no way of adjusting them. With the newer frame, you do. I can tell you this from personal experience, as I currently own one four, and two fivers that are from this year. So with regards to the fivers, you can go as narrow as you would ever need to, or far wider than would be comfortable to play on.

The one big complaint that I, and many others have, is that Kahler decided to lop off close to an inch off the arms on the new units. Personally, I hate the shorter arms. They still work, but it takes a bit more effort than the old arms did.

I hope I've been able to help! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:47 pm

EricHaven wrote:
You've come to the right place, Echo. Wink

I got my very first Kahler back in 1984, and I've owned probably more than a dozen since then. I usually drone on too much about things, so I am going to really try to keep it short and sweet. Remember that I'm only speaking from my experience, and opinions will vary. But for what it's worth, here goes.

Comparisons? Hardly a difference. Performance-wise, they are equal. And as Mike/Amimbari pointed out, having the adjustable claws on the 7410's makes a huge difference.

My understanding (and I could be wrong about this) is that the 2400's being sold on the main Kahler site are more handmade, whereas the 7410's are more machined. I did once hear a rumor that the 7410's had aluminum in them, but this was shot down pretty quickly. From what I know, they are still brass and steel.

You are correct about the old 2415's being basically a four-string with an added saddle. This is why Kahler opted to go with the much-larger frame for their fivers and sixers. The old fivers were extremely narrow, and you had no way of adjusting them. With the newer frame, you do. I can tell you this from personal experience, as I currently own one four, and two fivers that are from this year. So with regards to the fivers, you can go as narrow as you would ever need to, or far wider than would be comfortable to play on.

The one big complaint that I, and many others have, is that Kahler decided to lop off close to an inch off the arms on the new units. Personally, I hate the shorter arms. They still work, but it takes a bit more effort than the old arms did.

I hope I've been able to help! Laughing

Eric,

Yes, helpful insight. Thanks! One thing I just want to make sure of...the 2415 also has the adjustable string claws, correct? I commented on a YouTube clip the other day, and one of the Kahler folks responded, stating (the way I took it) that the 2415 allows for adjustable claws. Here's their response to my query:


"A little better now... same quality, and of course lessons learned improve things over time. A few changes - we have the ability to really customize spacing to the artist's preference, and we build bass tremolos that can accomodate up to 8 strings. One BIG improvement is the string hooks - they can now be´╗┐ moved individually so there is no sideways bend in the string between the saddle (roller) and the string hook.
KahlerUSATrems in reply to echo9INE 1 day ago"



I too have come across the info/rumors of the 74xx being aluminum. But also, that the 2xxx series allows for choice of materials (e.g. steel/brass, brass/brass, teflon/brass). I wish Kahler's site would publish more specification information.


Tks,

D.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:33 pm

Yeah, the kahler site is limited with information.

My understanding is an original 2xxx series can become claw adjustable just by swapping out the cam and claws. If you buy from an authorized dealer that has newer stock, a 2xxx should have the adj claws. Email whammiwold and ask.

Ive always used the 7410's with no problems. Very well engineered and built. Love em ... except for ....

There are cats on ebay with decent prices selling blem casts as new and stating they are authorized kahler dealers. I doubt that. Go to whammiworld.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:13 pm

Agreed. Go to Wammi World, and tell John we sent you.

From what I understand, and to underscore what MadMike said, the stock 2415's do NOT come with adjustable claws, but you can swap out the cams. The 7415's definitely DO come with the adjustable claws.

Again, like MadMike suggested, ask John at Wammi World. Since he works for Kahler, he would know for certain what options you would have. And Kahler is constantly changing things up, and making improvements, of which John would know of the very latest and greatest.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that, from a simplicity standpoint, you would probably better off just getting a 7415. The frames are definitely wider than they are on the 2415's, but you get the added adjustment room, as well as the adjustable claws.

John/Wammi World also sells blem Kahlers on eBay, and you'll know his ads from the others since he includes his logo. The prices are ridiculously low. In fact, my black 7415 is a blem from John, and to be perfectly honest, I have no clue where the blem is on it.

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:27 am

The blem i got off ebay was the base casting ... like there was leakage in the mold at a seam making a line. I just cleaned it up with a dremel and used gun blueing. I complained to the guy and he sold me a perfect one for $100 so i got mine.

Was thinking about putting the aluminum myth to rest ... weigh a 2410 and a 7410. If theres aluminum in the 7410, it should be lighter, right?
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:26 am

EricHaven wrote:
Agreed. Go to Wammi World, and tell John we sent you.

From what I understand, and to underscore what MadMike said, the stock 2415's do NOT come with adjustable claws, but you can swap out the cams. The 7415's definitely DO come with the adjustable claws.

Again, like MadMike suggested, ask John at Wammi World. Since he works for Kahler, he would know for certain what options you would have. And Kahler is constantly changing things up, and making improvements, of which John would know of the very latest and greatest.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that, from a simplicity standpoint, you would probably better off just getting a 7415. The frames are definitely wider than they are on the 2415's, but you get the added adjustment room, as well as the adjustable claws.

John/Wammi World also sells blem Kahlers on eBay, and you'll know his ads from the others since he includes his logo. The prices are ridiculously low. In fact, my black 7415 is a blem from John, and to be perfectly honest, I have no clue where the blem is on it.


Hmmm...according to John at WammiWorld, both the 2415 and the 7415 come with the sliding string hooks.

His response to my query, "Yes, all the 7415 and 2415 five string bass tremolos include the sliding string hooks."

He also provided a link to the replacement parts page, which I followed, and the cam seems to be the same part number for both models.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:44 am

echoSE7EN wrote:
EricHaven wrote:
Agreed. Go to Wammi World, and tell John we sent you.

From what I understand, and to underscore what MadMike said, the stock 2415's do NOT come with adjustable claws, but you can swap out the cams. The 7415's definitely DO come with the adjustable claws.

Again, like MadMike suggested, ask John at Wammi World. Since he works for Kahler, he would know for certain what options you would have. And Kahler is constantly changing things up, and making improvements, of which John would know of the very latest and greatest.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that, from a simplicity standpoint, you would probably better off just getting a 7415. The frames are definitely wider than they are on the 2415's, but you get the added adjustment room, as well as the adjustable claws.

John/Wammi World also sells blem Kahlers on eBay, and you'll know his ads from the others since he includes his logo. The prices are ridiculously low. In fact, my black 7415 is a blem from John, and to be perfectly honest, I have no clue where the blem is on it.


Hmmm...according to John at WammiWorld, both the 2415 and the 7415 come with the sliding string hooks.

His response to my query, "Yes, all the 7415 and 2415 five string bass tremolos include the sliding string hooks."

He also provided a link to the replacement parts page, which I followed, and the cam seems to be the same part number for both models.



I'll quote myself for a second -- with news from Bob at Kahler.

Bob confirmed what John at WammiWorld said, and even included a picture (with his permission to publish it here), along with his apologizes for any confusion associated with the current website. They are in the process of a relaunch, and Bob said much more information will be available to us then (updated photos, specs, and install instructions for luthiers). Look for the new site in approximately a month.

Here's the 2415:
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:29 am

oh wow so much wider of a frame they need 2 sets of bar holes...weird.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:24 pm

Yeah Mike. The frame is the same for both the fiver and sixer versions. Also, the cams on both feature six springs, instead of just three.

You've managed to update our information here, Echo. Bravo! cheers So it does look like the 2415's now have the adjustable claws like the 7415's. But you're also right about the main Kahler site, in that the pictures still show the older fixed claw version. Thanks for clearing that up!

MadMike, you might be onto something with regards to weighing both version to see if the 74 series are any lighter than the 24 series.

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:30 pm

im changing my strings before my show sat night, and i also have that spare 2410 so if mike dont do it, i will.
i'll weigh it on my postal scale to get an accurate reading, then everyone will know.

if mike does it before me then I wont take the 7410 off, but shoot 4 screws not a hassle either way.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:54 pm

I dont have a 2400 series to weigh.

When kahler updates their site ill have to chek their install directions with the techniques we use here.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:16 pm

Good call, MadMike. They might need to update their information.

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 6:14 pm

show them how its done ... right?

tongue
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:02 pm

madmike wrote:
show them how its done ... right?

tongue

Laughing

Nah! We're just their loudest cheerleaders, ya know?

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:51 am

I have one of the 5er ones before they moved to the wider base, bought literally a month before the changeover, much better now it seems, the old ones only allowed 14, maybe 15mm string spacing. Actually, I use mine on a 4 string neck, an interesting thing, I can fairly quickly swap between 4 and 5 strings the saddles aren't hard to remove. These days preferring it at 4, since I usually play 5s with wider spacing now the super tight setup was bugging me a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:38 pm

Darkstrike wrote:
I have one of the 5er ones before they moved to the wider base, bought literally a month before the changeover, much better now it seems, the old ones only allowed 14, maybe 15mm string spacing. Actually, I use mine on a 4 string neck, an interesting thing, I can fairly quickly swap between 4 and 5 strings the saddles aren't hard to remove. These days preferring it at 4, since I usually play 5s with wider spacing now the super tight setup was bugging me a bit.

If memory serves me correctly, weren't the older fiver units built using the same-sized frame as the fours were?

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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Fri Sep 14, 2012 2:18 pm

That's right Eric, Kahler calls this narrow and wide spacing. 5 string on a 4 frame narrow and 5 string on a 5 string frame wide. Or something like regular neck and wide neck. Like this you can even get a wide spaced 6 string tremolo (on a frame that would also accomodate a narrow 7 string!). Why don't we see this stuf very often? It is not offered as a option on the hybrid series, you would have to ad saddles and string hooks yourself, it is offered on the professional 24XX series though.
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PostSubject: Re: 2415 for a new build - quality question(s)   Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:24 pm

Eric, exactly that! In fact, if memory serves me well, I used both as 4 stringers first, and added the saddle from the one sold as a 5er to the one I got as a 4 string, other than the extra saddle and claw they were identical.


Jim, I don't have the basses to hand, but I'm sure they were Hybrids. I know I went for the cheapest available at the time, from Wammiworld, IIRC.
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