How ya all doin? Blowwave from Blighty here

just stumbled on this here site.... heres the deal, been playing for 30 years using fender P's, gordy headless, tobias tobypro, westone Thunder, yamaha attitude, fender geddy lee jazz and my latest (and personal favourite of the lot) a yamaha BB714BS which, believe it or not makes my old attitude sound like a feeble pussycat.

I love the yammy 714 that much i am thinking of flogging the geddy and getting another and fitting a trem...... and was investigating when i stumbled upon this site..... Gotta say its almost like an obscure deviants society .... so i'll fit right in hahahaha..

Current rig is a trace elliot 1210 combo which is cool in that it has hi and low frequency effects loops, so i run the low end clean and distort the living piss out of the high end.......kinda like a poor mans cousin of the billy sheehan sound i have searched for......effects ... nothing fancy just a Boss ME50B which has 3 presets only that i have set ...... high end distortion (on its own) / ditto plus enhancer which makes harmonics scream and ditto with flanger.....

Thats it ..... not the starship enterprise but it does sound like a concrete elephant playing a buzzsaw with its cock )

Heres a question ... single one really ....... at the moment i am getting super low end and a nice distorted high end ala mr sheehan ......... what is the effect on the basses low end if i were to rout out a trem cavity? does it lose out....... on guitars they can fit a brass plate in there to replace the mass and regain the low end? Will this happen in my case and will a similar solution apply......

I realise i am a newbie here, and diping my toe in at the moment and trust that you specialized bunch of loons can point me in the right direction.

Cheers

Greetings, Blowwave! Glad you found us!

You sound like my kind of bass player!

OK, so there has been a lot of discussion about adding a trem to a bass. One of the single most persistent questions We get here is exactly the ones you are asking. I'll share some of my experience for what it's worth, and Everyone else can chime in when they can, so you'll have a better idea of what to expect.

Will there be a difference in tone when you add a trem? Of course there will be. Any time you make any change, it will affect something. But I've been playing Kahlers since 1983, and the difference I notice is so slight that it doesn't end up affecting things so drastically as to completely destroy one's tone.

The main thing that some players seem to notice isn't so much as loss of low-end, but a change in sustain. We have players here that say a trem takes some sustain away, and others that say the heavy mass of, say, a Kahler, actually adds sustain. Honestly, I hardly notice a difference.

I run two pickups/cords/amps ala Billy Sheehan, and I have more than enough sustain for what I do. And I have never added any brass plates.

I have also wanted to look into the BS714, but only because I used to play Yamaha BB300's, and mine were set up exactly like the BS714. This is me with my old Ozzy tribute Rhoads to Ozz, and was taken in 1993. Not the best picture, but you might recognize the bass:



Kahler 2410 bass trem, Jackson bass humbucker in the neck, DiMario Model P's in the middle, wired in stereo. Man, I LOVED that bass!

OK Guys! Let's help our new brother out here! Share your observations?

I run a stereo rig for recording only. I used to have a me50b and upgraded to the gt10b. Pros and cons with each, but I miss the distortion of the me50. I run the 2 separated channels out of the gt int two rigs. Carvin vx1200, 210 & 115 effects heavy side and a peavey mark V into a markbass 215 clean channel. The carvin rig has enuff low end and the gt has a good distortion / clean blend, I can run the one rig on stage. I can also run the carvin bi amped if theres good mics and monitors cause it halfs the wattage twice.

Either way, it rumbles the grundle.

I just built and traded in a yamaha ltd. Fun project, but I had no need for the stereo out. Nice bass tho. Yeah, ide love to get my hands on a bb someday. Im gonna just chill for now; very happy with my latest carvin v440 build.

Its been my experience installing a kahler increaces sustain and doesnt effect the lower frequencies at all.

Post any questions you got and we'll do what we can to help.

Welcome to the nuthouse.

Well hello there guys, its been a while for a number of reasons, new baby in the house, moved house, new job....... (how many more stressful situations can i cram into the year eh?)....

Anyhow the geddy lee went .... a very nice guy in a rush trib band bought it so am chuffed it got a right and proper home.... the upshot is i now have a pair of BB714's .... Blackie and Reddie (a lot of thought went into those names as well!), blackie is my bitch with a hipshot and has been clanging the stages for 12 months now.... whereas reddie has done 4 songs only and remains all shiny and ready for her tremultuous overhaul...

This morning i got a delivery from John at Wammi world, my 7410 unit and am meeting a nice man on monday who will the carve the living piss out of her....

I have an issue tho..... been trying to get the templates off the interweb, n they dont seem to wanna print off to scale ..... one of them was half a foot wide!!

anybody got the templates in PDF form that i could have or even tell me what im doing wrong with the printing?

That aside im ready to enter divebombing heaven, those 2nd fret harmonics with a divebomb are gonna be a blast

Peace, love, sausage n chips guys

Greetings as well once again since your back. Did you try the wammiworld pictures for the template?
My current bass has a 7410, but I have had a couple with 2410's in them. Thanks you Kahler for making the bridges universal left/right
here's a pic from our show on Friday night 8-10-12.

and before it got dark, I took a pic from one of the windows behind the band:


I currently also run a stereo rig using a Crown XLS and a rack mixer so I can split the signal paths into 2 separate cabs from my Behringer V-amp.

.

Mike, you will be happy to learn that I now also run a Crown XLS, thanks to your input.

did you get the 1000 or the (1500/2000/2500)
The thing never gets hot no matter how hard I try. We played an outdoor show earlier this month, had both cabs and the LED's were pretty much maxxed out the whole time. The only "bitch" is there is no sub-sonic filter so a good pop off the strings and you hear/feel it. They were stupid in that regard cause the built in filter only goes to 50hz which is stupid so I leave it off.

and isnt it nice to be able to pick it up with 1 hand? You'll have to show a pic of the new rack.

Will do, Mike. I've been really busy with mine and Linda's wedding, and things are only now starting to get back to normal. I also know that I need to post pictures of my new Twins. Um, I think I got the 1500? You know, I can't remember! I'll check tomorrow when I'm back at the studio.

Yo blo,

We got off topic here ... that happens sometimes.

Sorry i havent been here. New job, household projects, doing auditons again and focusing on refinishes (and a les paul has been sitting on my bench all summer); ive been insane busy.

Installs ... stuff everyone shud know ....

1)will it fit?
"fit" is a general term and its meaning depends on the persons instrument understanding. make no mistake, its all about intonation and all measurements should be taken from the intonation line ... that would be the mid point between where the saddles forward g string position and and rear e string position on your currently installed bridge (assuming its intonated properly). your new kahlers saddles +- adjustment middle will have to fall on that line. i mark the original bridge's intonation line with a piece of masking tape and a pencil before i take it off for an install.

now you know that, its the issue of fitting or not. the kahler's mid saddle adjustment point to the back of the kahler base is 1.9". if you have 1.9" from the bass' intonation line to the back of the bass body, ittl work, but the back of the kahler will be right at the round or bevel of the back of the body. it might look funny ... altho ittl be correct. if you only have 1.5", you can get it to work, but ittl really look funny.

when looking for a bass to install a kahler on, i look for a bass that has at least 2.175" from the intonation line to the back of the body. sorry ... i've never measured a bb.

there are ways around and ways to cheat this if the body is too short, but we're talking about relocating the nut and neck ... i can do it but i really dont want to either. its easier to just find a bass that ittl fit on. find a bass that the kahler wont be hanging off the back.

2)will it fit? lets talk about action, string height and playability..........
fact. a kahler sits higher than a standard fender plate or high mass bridge. it has to to fit the cam and saddle assemblies. its taller from base to (acceptable) minimal saddle height
fact. when a kahler is mounted youll want to set the saddles low enuff for great action. if you set them too low the strings will buzz on the manifold in front of the saddle that holds it in its intonation spot. when you drop the manifold and saddle assembly the manifold's angle gets more and more acute untill there is just no room for the string to resonate properly.

i like my action low. i constantly go back and forth on my basses with the truss and string height looking for that perfect balance, as low as i can go with no fret buzz. i've found that a lot of basses, if i just rout out a pocket like the template to fit the springs and mechanism on the bottom of the kahler (more about that template later) and mount the base of the kahler on the flat top of the bass, i can only drop the saddles so far untill they start buzzing on the manifolds ... doh ... so much for a simple install. this isnt going to work this way. i need more range to drop the strings closer to the frets. i havent figured out a way to test this accurately without installing the kahler and testing it out.

now, fender has been shimming necks for years. techs at fender and other luthiers have done it to compensate for machine slop and missed tolerances. if a neck pocket is a few thousand off ... what are you gonna do? throw away the body? no ... your gonna make it work and sell it. AND I'VE LEARNED SOME THINGS HERE GUYS SO HEADS UP!!! a shim in the neck pocket does not affect sustain at all ... its the contact from the heel of the back of the neck with the back of the pocket. so i'll admit it, i've used shims to get bodies and necks "in there" to get angle and action correct. i use them minimally and still as a last resort. enuff about my my beliefs ...........

if you have high action with a kahler surface mount you have two options ...

1)bring up the neck with shims to the playing plane established by the kahler's minimum adjustment. we're talking about .175"+ here. my personal opinion ... yuk. dont do it. there will be a big gap (.175") between the neck and the body. it may not bother you, but i'll tell you ... i see that mess immediately. i've seen cats stick all sorts of ugly crap in there that really just ruins the bass for me ... and i'm sure they open up the possibility for all kinds of mechanical problems. i am also sure that there are plenty of cats who do it seamlessly and successfully. i would consider filling the existing pocket with a thin block (ide use ash or mahogany because its soft and easy to work with) and re routing the pocket angle with the higher depth.

2)sink the kahler. this is what i usually do. i figure, i gotta rout the mechanical pocket anyway ... i might as well rout out a pocket around it for the kahler to sit in 1/8" below the surface. this brings the saddle range down further to the existing playing plane established by the neck, neck angle and frets. the kahler actually sits "in" or below the the surface top. its kahler base is tall enuff that it usually ends up flush or just a bit above the surface ... i think it looks cool. i also prefer the range of saddle adjustment to be more at its + side than its -. in other words ... the saddles more up to be adjusted properly than down. this keeps the strings further away from those manifolds (because i rock it out a lot and play real hard sometimes).

logic tells me that if you have a press fit neck or neck thru bass ... #2 is your only option since you cant move the neck if you cant adjust the saddles low enuff for proper action. i dont know if the bb model you have is bolt on or neck thru (or if you'll have the height issue at all).

that template you've seen? poo poo. i used it once. the pocket it establishes isnt big enuff to accept the range dimension of the mechanism that sticks out the bottom. it needs to be ... lemme chek my drawing ... .82" from where the base of the kahler mounts to the bottom of the pocket and .175+ bigger going towards the nut. its just a guide to give an idea what needs to be removed. remember when routing ... GO SHORT FIRST and chek it. if its short and you need to remove more, go ahead; you can always remove more material. if you go too far ... replacing material is a lot more work. removing too much material isnt a big deal with the pocket ... its under the kahler. oops, oh well, put the kahler on and nobody will ever see it. just as long as the base of the kahler is firmly mounted to the surface and the mounting screws are firmly set in the body.

if you are paying someone to install this thing ... print this out and ask them questions and make sure they understand this stuff before they say, "yeah, yeah, yeah ...." and hack up your bass. i dont care how long they have been doing repairs or who they work for; i've seen several hack jobs because of lack of attention to simple instrument mechanics. maybe its because they dont know and maybe its just because they think we are silly for wanting a trem on a bass ... or maybe they are guitar players.

with a simple dremel router, a drill and dial calipers ... you can do this yourself. a lot of long wordy explanations, blah, blah, blah, to describe something that when you do it yourself you say, "oh, i get it. that was easy." well ... not easy ... its work. but its not building a complete bass and not rocket science.

i hope this helps.

Mike thanks for all that info mate ....... I will be honest here and let you know how i went about it....warts n all...

did a full masking tape job around the existing bridge and marked off the intonation lines etc.....

removed the yammy bridge, which is a serious piece of kit to be fair .... like a badass in weight (maybe heavier) but like a fender bridge in dimensions ... (i digress)

placed template, printed off of internet (checked against kahler first and it seemed pretty close) and positioned it and gaffer taped it in place....

Now to do the routing, away i went (and please bear in mind this was my first play with a router as well) and routed out the pockets and also routed out the countersunk area. Not a bad job if i do say so myself...... The countersunk area did creep into the edge curve as you stated and caused me the one bit f nastiness (i have lost an inch of wood wide to the rear of the bridge - same depth as the countersunk section where the wood on the curve sheared off). It isnt gonna cause any major tone issues but It pissed me at the time...

Tried fitting the kahler, and it was too small.....The template on the internet was about 95% of what i needed. I ended up shaving and fettling the edges with a stanley knife to make it fit....

I will be the first to admit that it isnt the tidiest job you will ever see, but it works very well.... Get a little squirt of wee every time i dive bomb a chord (thats either my age or excitement)

A closer shot of the trem on the bass and also a shot of the other BB714BS that has been stereo'd up - even got the nice man to put a microswitch in which sets it back up as mono (out of the shop)..... And it sounds like an elephant using a buzzsaw to 'open up' an angry rhinocerous.... Very happy!!!


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Omg ... that looks fine. Ive gone off the back before ... it is what it is. If it wasnt then it couldnt or isnt ... or somethin.

No buzz on the manifolds? String height good? Decent action?

If you got scratches, gouges, boogies, bald spots or just wanna change colors now, i recommend you to my other bass guitar addiction enabelers ...

http://reranch.com/reranch/index.php

Nice job!

Agreed!

At first yes it buzzed and farted and all manner of nastiness, but gave it a good setup and then left it to settle for a day (which was murder!!!). The black bass in the picture is my beyatch and the action is very low....but gotta say that the one with the trem is equally low now (especially after i found the allen key hole that allowed adjustment of the whole unit) and the bar sits about 1.25 inches off the body now and is damn easy to get at and operate...

Would like to say many thanks for all your comments fellah's and i guess for just being here, as well, cos i think if i hadnt of spotted this site and read all the various posts, this might have been a crazy idea that just evaporated over time....as it is i saw you guys and your various axes and thought **** yeah! I having some of that....

I love the response the bass gets as well, its like an inverted compliment at a gig when a guitarist says "What kind of moron would put a trem on a bass?"...... A nice big smile and the response "The kind of moron you are not gonna be able to take your eyes off for the next 2 hours!"

What responses do you guys get when a guitarist sees the trem on a bass for the first time?

response? hell I'm lucky if they even notice me. Only time they do is when I'm feeling a little different and flip a righty and play it, only then.

I have had those questions posed to me many times actually. Does it work, does it make the bass heavier, does it stay in tune, do you use it, I remember the 80s when everything had one on it.....

and p.s. it is a VIBRATO bridge, not a tremolo. Must have been some guitar-tard who started saying it and then the masses followed like sheep.. Eric needs to change the title of the website to BassVibratoFanatics.

isnt there a danger then that, due to mis-spelling issues we might get inundated with people looking for brassvibratorfanatics.... Dont wanna prejudge em, they might be nice people, just dont wanna get involved in a confusing conversation about nickel poisoning and loosened G strings.....

trem sounds better and is easier to pronounce?

amimbari wrote:

Eric needs to change the title of the website to BassVibratoFanatics.

Or perhaps, Bass Whammy Fanatics? Or Bass Wiggle Stick Fanatics?

Yeah Mike, you are correct in that "tremolo" is not really the right term, but as you pointed out, it has become the accepted name for vibrato units.

blowwave wrote:

What responses do you guys get when a guitarist sees the trem on a bass for the first time?

I've had the whole range of responses over the years. I've seen crowds form in front of my gear before we went on, and I would overhear things like "what the hell is that thing on his bass???"

I actually had a guitarist at an audition tell me, "you cant do that. Its not a bass."

Guitarists hate me. Penis envy? Its not just the trem. Multi processor on the floor with the loop chain of pedals on top. Sometimes the dual rigs. The main rig being 1200w. The melodic riffs that i write instead of just playing tonic to the beat. Solos. Chords.

They wont admit it but its just that im the kind of bassist that pushes them to work harder to make better music. Aww, poor things.

The really funny part is whenever I get that same "You can't do that on a bass...blah, blah, blah....bass should be played this way...yadda, yadda, yadda", I will then toss out something like "Oh yeah? Then what about Billy Sheehan, Geddy Lee, John Entwistle, Chris Squire, Victor Wooten, etc, etc, etc?"

There's a momentary pause....followed by an aggravated "well....it's different for those guys!"

Seriously?

this is turning into the same thing as the one on TB ya copycats.....

'Confession Time: Admit How You Are Different From The Bass Player Norm'

amimbari wrote:

this is turning into the same thing as the one on TB ya copycats.....

'Confession Time: Admit How You Are Different From The Bass Player Norm'

except over there, everyone uses it for an excuse to get away with saying "I hate anyone who has a trem and I think it is stupid and should be left to the guitarplayers", etc. but to me the best ones are the I hate Fender and tube type amps/Ampeg posts...hahah ( lot of those )

I put a post in there but it was deleted as "not on topic"
"I hate every bassplayer on this entire board who thinks talkbass is the go-to site for anything but idiots who are sheeple and will believe anything this site says as gospel"

Bravo, Mike!

amy and i went shopping for carpet today and were surprised how many different shades of tan and brown there were. we dont want tan or brown!

amy asks me why there is so much of that and none of what we want.

my response ........

sheeple.

or "them".

that is what is marketed to because that is what "they" want because that is what they are told they want. tan, brown, white, lowes, ikea, fender, adult contempo, safe, ordinary.