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 refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!

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madmike

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PostSubject: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:19 am

i know, we are bass trem users and installers, but in doing so, i have had to embark down the road of refinishing. i've gotten tons of info from you guys about all kindsa other bass related stuff ... so i'm gonna throw it out there to you guys.

And I dont like doing this because i'm not looking to badmouth anyone ... But its more asking for help and suggestions.

When ide refinish basses before, it wasnt about using nitro lacquer color (like I should) but more about color that I want that would work with a thick coat of clear lacquer on top that wouldnt melt or destroy the color. ive had good results (like mikes series 10). and some that just dont work (old man skin and bubbling).

I found a company that specifically manufactures nitro lacquer for instrument refinishing. they have a message board with people who do restorations sharing information like we do here. Ive mentioned it here. i wont again ... because i'm not looking to badmouth anyone. i thought ... this would resolve a lot of headaches that i've had and be able to help me produce a better project.

now, i think you guys as bassists have experienced the attitude we get from guitar players about anything interesting we try to do with bass. there are two other bassists on that message board and i watch the guitar player re finishers blow us off and talk down to bassists constantly. the topic of kahler trems came up there once and you guys wouldnt believe the responses. i told the guy who was asking in a PM to come here. point is ... ive always just thought this was me being sensitive ... no, this is the attitude we get. not having to do with what my problems have been, but just felt like i should make this statement. its general, because i've had plenty of guitar players who are a big help ... but the attitude is getting old.

anyhow, these have been my results with their products.

yamaha attitude ltd: it had a heavy metal flake that looked really cool. it was duplicolor with deft on top. the non flop agent in the paint worked really well so that the lacquer top coat didnt remelt and lay the flakes back down. this finish got destroyed during rennovations to my house and i had to redo it ... i'm still removing floor quality polyurethane off the neck and frets.

the company's equivalent was inca silver ... its a standard fender color. eh. it is sold as a metal flake but its flakes are really small. not what i thought it should be.

sanded old finish flat, shot white lacquer primer, sanded, and shot the color. old man skin. bought more paint, sanded it down again, primed it 3 times, shot color, orange peel ("they" call it orange peel. it looks stippley to me - like it just doesnt lay flat or overspray, just everywhere). the company and message boards explination for this is that with any lacquer aerosol, your gonna get orange peel and overspray. it wasnt just one spot or over the edges from spraying the front ... it was all over the place. buy more paint, sand it flat again, shot color ... actually came out flat! and shot clear satin lacquer.

i shoot satin for 2 reasons ... 1) i'm a bassist who plays with my fingers. high gloss gets fingerprints all over it ... i just think satin looks better, longer, right out of the gig bag. 2) i dont feel like spending a month with high grit paper, compound and polishers buffing to get a high gloss finish that i really dont think looks that much better and i dont want anyway.

so i got this all to lay down and it looks pretty good ... more consistent than the first shoot but not really the color i was going for (i wanted bigger flakes ... like the picture shows on their website). its shot and hanging for 30 days to cure the lacquer before re assembly. (after 6 cans of primer / color / clear @ $15 a can + shipping)

next project. ironbird.

coated this in sand sealer. used a hardware store brush on first that i couldnt get flat and kept sanding thru. got the company's aerosol sand sealer ... this stuff actually worked great. so, sand sealer, primer, color (pahlen blue), clear ... shot the color ... orange peel. sanded it flat and reshot color ... orange peel. tried to get it to re - burn with clear ... even worse. sanded again and shot color ... finally laid down flat on the back but orange peeled on the front. this totaled 5 cans (ss, primer, color, color, clear) @ $15 / can + shipping .... and its still hanging in the basement looking like poo.

i'm just looking at it this way. @ $15 / 16 oz aerosol can, i'm expecting better results. i've posted asking questions at the other site wondering if i'm doing something wrong or looking for suggestions to get better results, but there is extensive information there about how to shoot that i've re read over and over and followed directions (and i have had bad results of another sort because i was doing something wrong that i havent talked about here now) and everyone else seems to be at a loss with my results. just unlucky? well ... this is becomming a very expensive unlucky. like i said, i've gotten better results with the "by the seat of my pants" hardware store products.

with more research i've found 2 other products ...

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/ColorTone_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquers/ColorTone_Black_Aerosol_Guitar_Lacquer.html

aww cummon! ... just black?

and this .....

http://www.byoguitar.com/Guitar_Kits/Finishing-Supplies/Aerosol-Vintage-Fender-and-Gibson-Colors.aspx

how do i know that either would be any different than what i have tried? and yeah ... very few colors.

so guys ... ask your friends, bandmates, relatives, luthiers, spiritual advisers, doctors, accountants and anyone else you can possibly think of for a better solution for a basement instrument re-finisher (because i know i can go out and get a compressor and spray equipment for about $1200 and get good results). i need to find a better way to shoot nitro color. this nitro in cans is a great idea ... but the one i have tried thus far has been unsatisfactory (and expensive).
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Barklessdog

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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:06 am

Shooting color with an airbrush is a very expensive & requires a lot of clean up (toxic) soaking the guns, religeously keeping everything clean.

The reasons for bubbling paint is when you combine two different products. You should only use one product. I think I remember you can spray acrylic lacquer over regular laquer but not regular laquer over acrylic?

I would alway do a test piece as well.

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madmike

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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:10 am

test pieces get expensive ... paint is expensive ... but yes, generally a good idea.

i was thinking about doing things the right way and getting a compressor and guns and a filtered spray booth and a blah blah blah blah. its endless. and the rig i would come up with would still be ameture ... better results than i been getting with aerosol cans but not much and still really expensive.

i found a guy local who does vintage restorations. i sent him an email asking him how much he would charge to just shoot primer / nitro color / nitro clear. if its around $100 / body, its worth it to me to just not to have to deal with it.
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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 5:57 pm

Man....what a bummer, MadMike. I wish I knew more about paint finishing, but I don't. All of my home-spun painting experience has been the old Eddie Van Halen "paint it as you want it/who cares if it isn't perfect?" school of thought.

My guitarist Andy is pretty handy when it comes to doing simple paint jobs, but he usually defers to our pro painter friend Frank for the really high-end jobs. For example, Zakk Wylde just asked Andy to build him some more guitars, and I think its Frank who is doing the paint work. Although, Andy does have a Les Paul knock-off that he built that has a blue-green glitter finish that came out killer. He even had to do a small repair to the finish on the top after he accidentally buffed too hard in one spot, but he managed to make it work. I'll ask him what he might be able to offer to help you.

As far as the naysaying guitar playing set, my attitude is still the same. Let them continue to think in their narrow-minded terminology, because, at the end of the day, it's their problem. As bass players, we will probably always be the red-headed step children of the string-playing set, due to the preconceived notions of what a bass is "supposed" to sound like. Primarily, these short-sighted attitudes are the results of what guitar players think. What they forget is that they aren't the only members in the band. I honestly believe that when a guitarist bad-mouths a bassist wanting to do something different, they are either feeling self-righteous, or threatened.

This is going to sound extremely arrogant, and I honestly don't mean it to be in the conventional sense. But everyone has their own ideas about what is right, and what is wrong, especially musicians. And when guitar players tell bass players "you can't do that", "that's the wrong way to do things", blah, blah, blah, they are WRONG. We bass players are NOT defined by what guitar players want, but by what WE want.

Obviously, not every guitarist feels they have to downplay/belittle bassists, and I applaud those that understand music is a shared experience, and that everyone brings something to the table.

Hang in there, stick to your guns, create YOUR art the way YOU want to, and don't ever, ever, ever, ever let anyone tell you otherwise.

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bootsox



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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:44 pm

I remember being in a band and the guitar player wouldn't let me use an EQ pedal.

I also remember kicking that guitar player out of the band.
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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:22 pm

Bad news is right and I'd not be happy either.
I've had decent finishes on autobody paint(65 Mustang long ago), wife's previous kitchen cabinets, bolt-neck bodies with....wait for it...spray cans. I avoid nitro or high $$$ cans. If you get totally frustrated, handoff the work to a very good autobody painter(Jimmy Foster of Fosters guitars started that way, he was autobody for his Dad when he repaired a 64 T-Bird neck snap for me decades ago).

Interesting this comes up as I just got a SUPER CHEAP SG bass clone to turn into a flag bass...with spray paint cans waiting now. All I've done so far is pull the hardware off(set neck). Pics when done.
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madmike

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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:33 pm

Thanks eric.

Its that, not doing what bassists are supposed to do, that has me on this journey .... Bass trems, swappin pres and pickups, rebuilding discontinued models. Face it ... Theres very few stock bass models readily available and affordable that I would want, so ill just build it.

If bassists werent innovative or creative we'de have no jaco, claypoo, flea or sheehan.

Ide appreciate any info you could get me.
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madmike

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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:38 pm

Yeah, ive done a lot of basses with cheap aerosol cans. Sometimes it works with the satin lacquer I shoot on top ... Sometimes not.

Mike .... Hows the finish I put on your series 10 holding up?
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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:29 am

Quote :
Interesting this comes up as I just got a SUPER CHEAP SG bass clone to turn into a flag bass...with spray paint cans waiting now. All I've done so far is pull the hardware off(set neck). Pics when done.

Cant wait to see it.


Painting can be such a pain, for me it was all determined on the weather, takes a whole summer to do a bass sometimes.
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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:12 am

the finish is no different than it was months ago....ask me in 10 years Smile

AND shrinking/cracking?

SOME PEOPLE LIKE THAT Wink


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madmike

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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:51 am

i dont think ittl shrink or crack mike ... its got like 8 or 9 coats of lacquer on top.

but yeah ... 20 years ... we'll see.
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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:09 am

maybe you'll have to revive the old "stone" textured finishes.

and 20 years? oh GOD I'll be over 70 and probably that thing and most of the others will be long gone to someone else.

BTW when your ready for some fun, I still have that jackson neck with the separated FB and stripped nut, AND I found another identical series10 unit to replace the white one's neck with and it needs painted and that extra sticker you gave me back thrown on it. This neck is 100% perfect frets all the way up to the end on all strings, so eh, for 100 bucks I bought the whole unit ( it is red )
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madmike

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PostSubject: Re: refinishing - Have to report bad results.... HELP!   Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:43 am

well, i have the tools to do leveling and crowning now ... but if this neck is better out of the gate, i'de probably not be able to get it as good as. once frets are leveled and crowned, thats pretty much it ... ittl play nice, but never new untill its refretted again.

make one great one ... and one beater one.

and yeah ... i forgot all about that jackson.

maybe this winter ... depending on what and if what band opportunities pop up in the next month or so.
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