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Chowderboots

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PostSubject: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:11 am

Got these at American Music for $350. Nice, clean, and pretty damn burly.



HEAVY bastards, though. Very good at drowning things out, which suits me just fine. Very Happy Don't know what happened to the Peavey and BW logos, though. Wish that they were both on that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:13 am

Woah! Sweet! Boom!
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:15 am

Indeed. They were cheap. It was a pain in the *** moving them around. Never knew a cabinet that size could be so god damn heavy!!!

They aren't for thrashing around...I'm just such a sucker for old stuff Rolling Eyes I really want to save up for some NICE cabinets. Like Mesas. Something to call my own, you know, where I can make their history not inherit that made by someone else. But still. Lots of fun for right next to the drum kit.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:16 am

I'm sure these will serve you damn' well until the Mesa's walk into your life.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:23 am

I'm not getting rid of them! I like to have as much gear as possible in as many rooms as possible. That way, something's always at my fingertips. These are 4 Ohm cabs, which means that they kinda have to be paired up with the 400+.

I wonder--what's the deal if I want to hook up a 4 ohm cab and an 8 ohm cab to my Mesa. It has 2 ohm outs, 4 ohm outs, and 8 ohm outs. It says that if you have one 4 ohm cabinet, you should hook it up to a 4 ohm output. Okay. That's easy. When you have two 4 ohm cabinets, that's a 2 ohm load, so you put each one into the 2 ohm outputs. Makes enough sense. But what about when you have 4 and 8 ohm cabs? Each one into its respective (4/Cool output? That doesn't sound right. Each one into a 4 ohm out? Don't know... confused
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:26 am

I completley lost you there, at the second line! Laughing

I'm an amp idiot!
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:27 am

Ditto...but I want to learn. scratch And I want more amps! hahaha bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:32 am

Martin, if you hook up a 4 ohm and an 8 ohm cab, you'll wind up with something like 1.2 ohms. Which will result in close to a dead short. Don't do it!

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:33 am

Aha. How do you figure that out? That's an interesting number. scratch

Too late. The 400+ is fried now. Thanks Eric. Rolling Eyes

I jest. geek
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:37 am

It comes from a mathematical formula of dividing 4 ohms by 8 ohms. Maybe it's the wine tonight, but I do know that you are risking an awful lot.

Here is a web program for car audio that outlines the figures:

http://www.bcae1.com/spkrmlti.htm

Plug in the figures and see what you come up with. Cool

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:48 am

Uh huh. I plugged in 4 and 8 and it came out with 2.67. Neutral So say that is true (I am not going to try this, just curious "what ifs")--how would I hook them up to the 400+? (here's the manual...if you want to look at it and read around all the marketing mumblo jumblo: http://mesaboogie.com/manuals/Bass%20400%20Plus.pdf )
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:25 pm

Upon reading the literature, it sounds like your amp will tolerate a 2 ohm load. Here is what it says:

SPEAKER JACKS
Two 8-ohm, two 4-ohm and 2-ohm speaker jacks are provided on the Bass 400 Plus. The
amp will produce its full power at all of these impedances, provided that the total
impedance of your speaker cabinets is matched to the output(s) used. (Slight mismatches
are not a major problem, but they will cause slightly lower output and may shorten tube
life.) When using more than one speaker cabinet, remember that the total load impedance
goes down as more cabinets are connected. For example, if you use one 8-ohm speaker
cabinet, use one of the 8-ohm jacks. But if you use two 8-ohm cabinets, they will be
operating in parallel and the total load will be 4 ohms. Therefore, plug each cabinet into a
4-ohm jack. If you want to use two 2x15 cabinets where each cabinet is rated at 4 ohms
(which is how Boogie 2X15’s are wired), connect both cabinets to the 2-ohm Jacks
provided.


That last sentence says a lot. It sounds like they are saying that you need to plug your cabinets into the 2 ohm jacks if you are anticipating a load that low. SO....I would imagine that if you were to plug in your 4 and 8 ohm cabinets into the 2 ohm jacks, this would work fine since you will produce a load of 2.67 ohms, which the 2 ohm section should tolerate just fine.

Guys? Anyone want to help confirm or deny this?

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Mon Mar 30, 2009 12:28 am

Uh huh. The manual is interesting. It reads as if one of the engineers sat down on a 15 and just pounded it out on his laptop--typos and all. Without any charts or diagrams or obvious statistics, you'd expect that it'd be hard to extract information from between the sales ploys, but it's surprisingly easy to find what you need, you know?

That being said, that sounds like a reasonable conclusion and what I had arrived at earlier. Just needed to take a step back and think it over again, you know? Wink Thanks, man.

It's just an idea. That's not what I'm aiming to do, but it's cool to know that it can be done. It's so much more worth it to run a stereo bass and have two different amp/cab setups than to try and hog as many different cabs with one amp. With stereo, you get such a natural wall of sound. It's clearer, more defined, and more diverse than if you power the same cabs with one output into one amp. It opened up a whole new world for me sonically...
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:01 am

with the lit available from eric, i would be led to believe that you would be running a 2.67 ohm load out of the 2, 2 ohm jacks.

am i correct in believeing that these peavey cabinets arent built at the same ohm load???

if they are, see if they are the same model (ohm load and wattage) speakers, or perhaps using the same crossover, one wired in series and one wired in parallel .... giving you the different ohm loads. if they are the same equipment and the circut path is different, you can rewire the one to be the same ohm load as the other (4 ohms).

if they are wired the same or crossovered differently (if it even has a crossover at all), and its just the ohms of the speakers are different, your at the mercy of the ohms of the speakers.

get the specs and some diagrams from peavey or there are wiring diagram sites on the net (compare more than one to be sure they are correct) to see if you have some options this way.

i give you this information from my experience of blowing my stuff up. nowadays, i run 2, 8 ohm cabinets in series for a load of 4 ohms ... never anything different. any variation wouldbe the two paralleled at 8 ohms. i'de be wary of running cabs in series or parallel at different loads. this is the place where weird math starts to get sucked into the vortex and defies physics. for me ... it sucks it allright, and my gear usually ends up with a puff of smoke comming up out of it.

above all ... these peavey cabinets are cool! i'm sure they weigh a ton ... any peavey cab i've ever had has. peavey cabs are pretty high quality. i've always been pretty happy with ther stuff. currently, i'm using their 300series head and my 15" is a black widow. it sounds great!
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:18 pm

Actually MadMike, if you run two 8 ohm cabinets in series, you get a 16 ohm load. But it is when you run them in parallel that you wind up with a 4 ohm load.

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:59 pm

Both of those Peaveys have an impedance of 4 Ohms, which is why I went searching for an amp that could handle the combined resistance of 2 Ohms and found the Mesa Boogie. Therefore, I run each cabinet out of a 2 Ohm output jack.

Yeah they are gigantic and it's a struggle to move them with two people. Talk about solid and bulky. With my Mesa they sound out of this world. They make me so very, very happy. They are the ultimate garage rig, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Mon Mar 30, 2009 7:16 pm

Bear in mind gang that the more you increase the impedance load, meaning, when you put your speakers in series, the less current flows through the power amp, your wattage drops, and the amp runs cooler. You also end up increasing the hi-fi tone of your amp, since it is running cooler, and less apt to distort. Usually you can get away with putting an 8 ohm speaker into a 4 ohm jack, since the difference is nil. A lot of amps will even tolerate a 16 ohm load into a 4 ohm jack, but you end up dropping your wattage way down. Most of the time, most amps handle an increase in the load, so long as you aren't trying to put something like 64 ohms into a 2 ohm jack. Again, the primary sacrifice here is that you will lose volume.

Parallel is another story altogether. The more you decrease the load, the more current wants to flow through the amp. This results in more wattage, but the amp now runs hotter, you lose tonal quality, and the amp will clip into distortion easier. You also run the risk of blowing your power amp section. You should be safe in doing something like putting a 4 ohm load into an 8 ohm jack, but the more wattage you are running, the more you increase the chances of doing some damage. Like, you could get away with doing so with an amp running in the 50 to 100 watt range, but I would strongly advise against doing something of the sort with a 500 watt amp.

Also, tube amps seem to handle impedance mismatches better than solid-state amps will, and I mean an amp with a tube power amp section. If you have an amp with a tube preamp section, but a solid state power amp, you are governed by the solid state section.

The nice thing about tubes is that, should you ever fry one, you can replace it easily enough. If you blow a solid state IC, it's a lot harder to recover from gracefully.

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:58 am

ya know eric ... i dont know who came up with this terminology and i'm sure on a geeks wiring diagrams it resembles so, but not to me. you are in fact correct.

when setting up cabs for a rig, purchasing or installing new speakers, i have a card i use to keep me from getting confused.

two speaker wires comming outta the back of my head, one to each cabinet, seems to me to be parallel ... its not ... its series and runs my 8 ohm cabinets @ 8 ohms. i guess it could resemble a series. one here. then one here. i dont run the cabs this way ... too much load.

one wire comming out of the back of my head and another outta the top cab to the second cab seems like it would be series ... its not ... its parallel, and how i usually run my cabs, @ 4 ohms.

i gotta go find the site that i use for reference when i wire cabs internally and externally.

these 2 peavey cabs are at 4 ohms and running at 2 in series. i never ran at 2 ohms and it seems weird to me ... but i guess that makes sense. really low load.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Tue Mar 31, 2009 3:43 pm

So let me get this correct. Your amp has two outputs that are wired in series, meaning positive to negative to positive to negative, right? That's odd, since most amps with multiple outs are wired together in parallel. But I'll take your word for it.

And again I am NOT trying to be nit-picky, just want to be sure that the point is clear to save you and everyone from damaging their amps. But when you say this:

"These 2 peavey cabs are at 4 ohms and running at 2 in series..."

Do you mean that you are running 2 cabinets in series? Or that you are running 2 cabinets as a 2 ohm load?

If the first is true, than you are running two 4 ohm cabinets in series for an 8 ohm load.

If it's the second, then you are running them in parallel for a 2 ohm load.

Just for clarification:



Forgive the hokey drawing and writing, but I am not good with using a mouse to write text.

Two 16 ohm loads in series equals 32 ohms total load. In parallel equals 8 ohms.

Two 8 ohm loads in series equals 16 ohms total load. In parallel equals 4 ohms.

Two 4 ohm loads in series equals 8 ohms total load. In parallel equals 2 ohms.

Two 2 ohm loads in series equals 4 ohms total load. In parallel equals 1 ohm, or a near dead-short.

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:52 pm

[quote="EricHaven"]Two 8 ohm loads in series equals 16 ohms total load. In parallel equals 4 ohms.[quote]

2 8ohm cabinets in parallel @ 4 ohms. this is the way the in and out jacks are on the hartke vx series (although, its not sampson anymore ... its eminence). head into one 8 ohm cab and the out from that cab into another 8 ohm cab is a total 4 ohm load (or so harke claims). if this is tru, than the wiring from the vx 210 is wired so its out would be parallel. perhaps this is why i get confused?

so, correct. the 2 output jacks on my peavey are paralled @ 4 ohms each.

the gk 2 outs dont say but state a minimum load of 4 ohms.

each of these cabinets sound overdriven with each one of the outs into each one of the cabinets (4 ohms out parallel into each 8 ohm cabinet) with either head that i use. they sound great using one jack into the vx and the vx into the 15" (@ 8 ohms each) ... that hartke claims to be running with that set up @ 4 ohms ......................

is it? or does it sound clearer because IT IS @ a higher load??? ... that doesnt make sense. are these cabs doubling up the load wired from one to the other?

or does it ... its the lower the load number that distorts the speakers, aint?

i think ultimately, this is why im interested in just going and buying a complete mesa rig. i'm tired of messing with all this stuff. i just want a rig i dont hafta mess with and rebuild to get the sound that i want and rumbles everyones insides.

i've gone back over this twice between you and i eric and i've come to the deduction ... this is all just difficult stuff to communicate correctly. i do like you did and draw it all out before i wire it up and power it up ... i've had no disasters since i've begun to do wiring this way. i havent done any rewiring in a while, so this was actually a good excercise.

i think you and i are both try to convey the same point here to everyone tho ... just be careful; you can ruin your equipment if your not.

the load combinations you listed under your drawing (i liked it) are accurate and mathmaticly make sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:17 pm

The lower the load you run, the more likely you will distort the power amp. A 500 watt amp designed for a 4 ohm load running at full steam will be more apt to distort at higher volumes, even though it's rated for a 4 ohm load. But if you put an 8 ohm load into the same amp, you'll get less distortion, but your total wattage will drop to something like 300 watts.

Lower impedance equals more wattage, more heat, more distortion.

Higher impedance equals less wattage, less heat, less distortion.

I know it all gets confusing, and I don't blame you for wanting to keep it simple. Even I have to work this stuff out on paper, and I've been a licensed amateur radio operator since 1979, and I had to learn all of this stuff to pass my tests. Despite this, I still get thrown a curve sometimes.

Case in point. Back in 2003 when I was playing for the Van Halen tribute Hot For Teacher, we did a show at a club called The Edge located in Palo Alto, CA. Since it was a giant stage, and because we were recording that night (actually, I have that show on CD still), our guitarist asked me if I wanted to use one of his extra 4x12 cabinets for my rig. Back then, I was running a 120 watt 1x15 Behringer KX1200 keyboard combo amp for my distortion channel, and my little SWR 1x15 combo amp into a second 1x15 cabinet for my low/clean channel. The SWR was rated at only 180 watts into 8 ohms, but would produce 300 watts with 4 ohms. Since the internal speaker was 8 ohms, and my 1x15 extension was also an 8 ohm cabinet, I got the full 300 watts into a 4 ohm load because the jacks were wired in parallel.

So when our guitarist asked me if I wanted to use his 4x12, I asked him "what's the impedance of your cabinet?"

He tells me "I believe it's an 8 ohm cabinet."

It wasn't.

It was a 4 ohm cabinet.

Total load into the SWR = 2.67 ohms. Which, to my poor little SWR meant almost a dead short. The power amp overheated, and burned up halfway through the second song. Right in front of hundreds of people, my SWR became engulfed in a ball of black smoke.

I ended up grabbing a DI, and going through the PA for my low/clean channel so we could finish the gig.

And from that night forward, I have learned to be extremely careful what impedance loads I run into my amp now.

That's why I overemphasize the point. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:20 am

Ooh....yeah I've heard you talk about that experience before. Sounds awesome, but really, really lame at the same time. I have no intention of seeing that happen to my 400+. My Hartke on the other hand...mah, that'd be kidna cool, actually!

It's curious that part of Mesa's marketing ploy for this amp seems to be that it's easy to maintain and more burly than solid state amps. They seem to be trying to dispel some of the myth about tube amplifiers. Pity they don't make them anymore.

That's part of what makes the amp so attractive to me--it's a great low, gritty clean. It appears to offer the possibility of driving lots of speakers and it makes me want to run it as safely as possible, so the more information, the better. In fact, a lot of the things you've mentioned are discussed in the 400+'s user manual (god, I love manuals. They are lifesavers), like the ability that tube power amps have to handle impedance mismatches better and the ease of replacing the tubes. The only thing that makes me a little dubious about the Mesa is how good it all is...what's the catch besides the price of tubes? I wasn't aware that in series, you amp can actually run cooler...that's interesting.

To be clear--you're talking about series and parallel. In this case, it has to do with how the speakers are wired together, correct? Not the amp's wiring?

What can the risks of running an amp at lower impedance levels for a long time be? Decreased tube life perhaps?
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:45 am

EricHaven wrote:
The lower the load you run, the more likely you will distort the power amp. A 500 watt amp designed for a 4 ohm load running at full steam will be more apt to distort at higher volumes, even though it's rated for a 4 ohm load. But if you put an 8 ohm load into the same amp, you'll get less distortion, but your total wattage will drop to something like 300 watts.

Lower impedance equals more wattage, more heat, more distortion.

Higher impedance equals less wattage, less heat, less distortion.


ok ... here is where i'm confused ......

that you stated above makes sense.

wether i use the parallel jack out of the back of the cabinet to the other cabinet or each parallel jack out of the amp to each cabinet ... either way, it shud be two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel at 4 ohms. if i run the parallel jack from one cabinet to the other, it has a much cleaner sound than if i run parallel from the amp.

any idea why????? scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:54 am

scratch I lost you guys at "amp" Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:41 pm

Ok, lots to catch up on here. Bear with me, guys. Wink

Martin, to answer your questions first. When I speak of series and parallel, I do mean how the speakers are hooked together, BUT, this can also be governed by the configuration of the speaker jacks on the amp. Some bass amps allow you to just plug in whatever you want (Carvin is a great example), and others allow this but you also have to adjust a switch of some sort to make the amp happy (as in the case of your standard Marshall guitar head). So it isn't enough to know how your speakers are hooked together. You also have to be aware of what exactly the expectations of the amp are.

And as far as any other "catch" of running a tube amp, it might only be the issue of weight. Tube amps are typically much heavier than their solid state counterparts since you need a much bigger transformer to step up the voltages required to power tubes, as this can easily be hundreds of volts. Whereas solid state devices only need a few volts to accomplish the same task.

MadMike, it almost sounds as if your cabinet jacks are setup to run in series when multi-chaining. Now, please understand, I'm not doubting your words. But theoretically, provided that you really are running the exact same impedance load either way, then it should appear the same to the amp. So the fact that you are getting different results tells me that something else is going on.

Do you notice a difference in volume depending on which way you run your cabinets? I realize this is a relative question, but I would think that if you are in fact comparing a series and a parallel situation, it would be detectable.

Can you give me:

1) The exact make and model of your amp.

2) The exact make and model of your cabinets.

It might be that your cabinets have a switching feature in the chain jacks that change the internal speaker configuration.

And Bill....we're over here! lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:43 pm

EricHaven wrote:
Ok, lots to catch up on here. Bear with me, guys. Wink

Martin, to answer your questions first. When I speak of series and parallel, I do mean how the speakers are hooked together, BUT, this can also be governed by the configuration of the speaker jacks on the amp. Some bass amps allow you to just plug in whatever you want (Carvin is a great example), and others allow this but you also have to adjust a switch of some sort to make the amp happy (as in the case of your standard Marshall guitar head). So it isn't enough to know how your speakers are hooked together. You also have to be aware of what exactly the expectations of the amp are.

OK. That makes sense. I was beginning to lose you, though. Now I'm on the same page.

EricHaven wrote:
And as far as any other "catch" of running a tube amp, it might only be the issue of weight. Tube amps are typically much heavier than their solid state counterparts since you need a much bigger transformer to step up the voltages required to power tubes, as this can easily be hundreds of volts. Whereas solid state devices only need a few volts to accomplish the same task.

No need to tell me how heavy the transformer is! Christ on a stick, taking that amp in the rack into the car leaves me pretty well winded. Sooo worth it, though!
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:44 pm

Actually, I think you meant to say that you were getting lost.

But I found you! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:51 pm

Yeah...me and grammar have been on poor terms lately. Rolling Eyes That's what I meant...
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:03 pm

It's ok. Cool

(pats Martin on the head while re-attaching his arm that he was going to send to Bill)

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:12 pm

Hooray! *keels over from blood loss*
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:41 am

these cabinets all have aftermarket speakers so you really need the details if your inclined to figure it out.

the top cab is a hartke vx210. this is the one with the in and the out jacks. having had it open to redo the speakers, there is a weird board on the inside of the inputs with tube looking thingers and resistors. i followed the path thru the board and i think the circuits to the speakers are straight thru and the board actually only controlls the output to the h.f. driver.

everything except for the speakers and driver are original.

2 10" eminence deltas, 350W @ 16ohms in parallel.
peavey rx 22 hf driver, 70W @ 8 ohms

the input jack to the output jack is wired in parallel with jumpers.

the bottom cabinet is an old carvin with a fuse protector (that is unnecessary as far as i'm concerned).

peavey black widow 15" 700W @ 8 ohms.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:53 pm

Those Black Widow speakers are pretty damn cool. What a Face I've heard from an engineer who designs and builds cabinets on TalkBass that 15" is more or less the optimal size for a speaker (as far as efficiency is concerned).
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:42 pm

Ok MadMike. I think I understand.

The circuit board with the components in your Hartke cabinet is the crossover. Now, since I am not certain how this particular crossover sees the different speakers, I am at a loss to figure out how exactly the impedance is balanced between the Eminence drivers and the horn.

Now, you do confirm that the horn is 8 ohms, however, I am again confused by the statement that your Eminence are 16 ohms in parallel. Do you mean that each speaker is 16 ohms apiece? And these are in parallel together? Or are they 16 ohms total between the two? The reason why this throws me is that if they are in parallel together, and the resulting load is 16 ohms, that would mean that each speaker is 32 ohms, which doesn't make any sense since speakers aren't made in 32 ohms. The norm is either 4, 8, or sometimes (although VERY rarely) 16. If the total load is 16 ohms, it makes more sense that they be two 8 ohm speakers in series.

Or is it that the Hartke is 16 ohms in total?

And the 1x15 Peavey at 8 ohms sounds right. But again, if you are running parallel connections here, that means you have 16 ohms in parallel with 8, which would then give you 5.33 ohms, and your amp will handle loads down to 4 ohms, right?

Again, sorry for all of the questions and the details. I am really just trying to understand what is going on with your rig, since there has to be a reason why running it one way gives you different results than the other option.

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Fri Apr 03, 2009 4:04 am

none of the above ... its like this .........





or with the crossover .... more like this (just with no description of the ohm load.)





now ... this crossover is the hartke product that has the original speakers and hf driver rated at 250W i think (pretty wimpy). this cab is wired in parallel so if you blow one of the speakers, (inevitably) the other shud still work. again, the 2 10" speakers are direct thru the crossover board from the input jack. the output ... i'm not sure what its doing. i think its jumpered from the input straight thru as well. could it be that this crossover from hartke is just not rated for the wattage i'm currently running. (my hf driver is 30 more watts than the original.)

this concept of the crossover .... kinda eludes me ... lotsa confusing numbers. the sound i'm always striving for, i think, resides in this technology. i really dont understand how they work and i'de love to chew the fat on that with you. fact is that i'm just not getting as much outta the 15" as i'de like. the eminence deltas are much louder.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Fri Apr 03, 2009 8:47 am

Ah! Excellent pictures, MadMike!

I see now. So the two drivers in your Hartke are 16 ohms each wired in parallel for a total of 8 ohms. But then this circuit is again paralleled with the horn/crossover circuit, so now the big question is what is that impedance?

So it appears that you've got 16 ohms in parallel with 16 ohms in parallel with ? ohms.

And even with these figures, that still does not explain why your two configurations sound different. There has got to be a reason why this is so!

I both live for....and hate....conundrums like this! scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:37 pm

like i stated before ... this is the same initial wiring configuration that the hartke vx210 came with. everything is the same except for the speakers and the hf driver.

i have no idea what the crossover, hf drive or speakers from hartke / sampson were rated at. overall the specs for the vx 210 original were so ..........

2 x 10-inch VX Paper Cone Drivers
1-inch Horn-Loaded Titanium High-Frequency Driver
Power Handling: 250 Watts
Impedance: 8 Ohms
Recessed ¼-inch Parallel Speaker Jacks
¾-inch Plywood Construction with Durable Carpet Covering
Stacking Corners, Steel Grill and Recessed Side Handles

oooooh. hartke and samson arent too repair friendly. their website doesnt supply too much info except for the basics and "buy more hartke". lemme see if i can find some more specs or diagrams.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:25 am

You guys lost me with the crossover part. What's up with those things? All I know is that the crossovers in my Peavey cabinets are reported to be easy to blow out.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sat Apr 04, 2009 4:12 pm

these are some of the intrieguing nibblets of information that i've been trying to get from eric ... before we got all wrapped up in the un - descriptive ohms law volley.

again, good exercise. as bassists, ohms law is very important, and some simple awareness can cause one to ask some questions that may save thousands of dollars and many 4 letter words from passing the lips.

as far as the hartke equipment, i havent been able to find anything on the specs of the stock components they use ... guess itsa big secret. as far as their aftermarket parts that are available, all they will sell you is cabinet handles, grilles and corner protectors.

and as far as crossovers ... i continue to search for information on function, specs and installation as i believe eric is right ... i think the original hartke crossover is not the right specs for what i'm trying to do with it. i have no idea how they work or what all the specs numbers mean. i wouldnt know what i was looking for to purchase one. all i do know is they help the correct frequencies go to the right speakers for those frequencies. i.e. low frequencies would be crossed over to my 15", the mid frequencies would go to my 10"s and another crossover would send the high frequencies to my hf driver.

and i also didnt even know you could blow up a crossover.

i think i'm gonna start a new thread to see if anyone else has any information.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:48 pm

I didn't know you could blow them up, either, but apparently, you can? I haven't had any trouble with some very beat up cabinets thus far...

Oh and back to the original theme of this thread--I called Guitar Satan earlier today and they still have the Mesa Diesel Powerhouse 1000 cabinet that came with the 400+. I've got it on hold and with all the overtime I worked last pay period, I should be set for 4 more 10s and a 15. Sometime, I need to slow down on this bass gear buying...but no bills to pay! What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:55 am

hey, if you can pick up gear now because theres no major bills to pay, then get as much gear as you can!

i'm lucky if i can afford to buy a head or cabs or a new bass every year.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:49 am

Yeah that's how I see it. Mi madre is slowly running out of space! What a Face

Hoping to move out in under a year, so I want to start saving a bunch of money soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:29 pm

Oh, yes. You most certainly can fry a crossover. I know, because I've done it. silent

As far as giving you guys the story on crossovers, I can only outline in simple terms what they do. But I don't know any in-depth details.

Basically, it takes your audio signal, and it splits it into separate frequency ranges. In a two-way crossover, it sends everything below, say, 1,000 hz to it's own out to go into something like a 15" or an 18". Then everything above this range goes into it's own out to be sent to something like a horn, or maybe even 6" or 8" speakers. This way, you get cleaner definition of the bass and treble, and you don't end up killing your tweeter with excess bass.

A three-way crossover works the same way, only it splits the audio into separate bass, mid, and treble sections. Like, everything between 20 hz and 1,000 hz is the bass signal, everything between 1,000 hz and 8,000 hz is the midrange signal, and everything above that is the treble signal.

As to how exactly a crossover does these things, it has to do with capacitive circuits that are tuned to only accept certain frequency ranges, and reject the rest.

That, in a nutshell, is about all I know for sure. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Lackluster old toys   Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:35 pm

Okay. That makes sense. Wasn't sure where to begin looking to research that! Laughing

What's your story with crossover frying?
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