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EricHaven
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PostSubject: OK....stupid technical question here....   Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:34 pm

I know that, for everything that I know....and everything that I pretend to know....there are holes in my understanding of things.

OK....here's my story. Years ago when I could actually get my hands on working DOD G7 units that weren't falling apart (I hate it when companies make really great products obsolete!), I used to run mine with the Grunge setting on full blast directly into the right side of the stereo power amp of my old Fender BXR Dual Bass 400 for my distortion channel (the other side was my clean channel). This is the exact same setup I had when I did my solo back in '96 that all of You have heard ad nauseum. Now, DOD is no longer around, as they got eaten by Digitech, and now the only sources for that awesome Grunge sound that I love so much is their pedals. And experiments with running the newer Grunge pedals into the front of the amp seem to be off the mark a bit.

So my question is....will the Grunge pedal work by itself going into a power amp? Does it have enough oomph to drive the thing without needing a preamp?

I know, I know....I can hear the questions already. Why not just find a good preamp? Well....I've been looking. A lot. And there always seems to be some sort of damping/loss/compression/tone-altering/mutant thing that happens. There was something really amazing about simply running that G7 right into the power amp, and I have never loved a distortion tone as much as that one.

So, before I spend the money on a pedal, what do you Guys think? scratch

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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 1:53 am

EricHaven wrote:
I know that, for everything that I know....and everything that I pretend to know....there are holes in my understanding of things.

OK....here's my story. Years ago when I could actually get my hands on working DOD G7 units that weren't falling apart (I hate it when companies make really great products obsolete!), I used to run mine with the Grunge setting on full blast directly into the right side of the stereo power amp of my old Fender BXR Dual Bass 400 for my distortion channel (the other side was my clean channel). This is the exact same setup I had when I did my solo back in '96 that all of You have heard ad nauseum. Now, DOD is no longer around, as they got eaten by Digitech, and now the only sources for that awesome Grunge sound that I love so much is their pedals. And experiments with running the newer Grunge pedals into the front of the amp seem to be off the mark a bit.

So my question is....will the Grunge pedal work by itself going into a power amp? Does it have enough oomph to drive the thing without needing a preamp?

I know, I know....I can hear the questions already. Why not just find a good preamp? Well....I've been looking. A lot. And there always seems to be some sort of damping/loss/compression/tone-altering/mutant thing that happens. There was something really amazing about simply running that G7 right into the power amp, and I have never loved a distortion tone as much as that one.

So, before I spend the money on a pedal, what do you Guys think? scratch

maybe instead of running bass guitar preamps after the pedal. why not try running some "saturating" preamps intended for recording purposes? they're not really designed to alter the sound and all, and they'll give you that boost and warmth!

cheapest tube one i've seen is the Paia one's, you can get them in kit form too!

http://www.paia.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9305HSR

maybe running something like that with an external EQ pedal (if nescessary) could give you the tone you we're after again?

i'm no expert, and i've never tried this. But that's just my .02
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:00 am

What if you ran your distortion pedal into a preamp pedal of some kind, then put that into your power amp? EQ the preamp pedal with a mid boost or something. I don't know if it will work to plug the DigiTech straight into the power amp or not. You might want to see if the manual can help youout.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:38 pm

Thanks Guys! Wink

Stephen, the thing is that I have tried any different distortions and overdrives, and none of them even comes close to sounding like the DOD/Digitech Grunge does. If I knew that the Paia sounded the same, then I would go for it. And if I ever do find another source for that same, exact tone, then I'll be all over it.

Martin, I did consider going into some sort of preamp or EQ pedal for the boost. But part of my thought process centers around the fact that the newer Digitech Grunge pedals have two outputs. One is for going directly into an amp, the other is for going into a mixer board, and has an additional cabinet simulation. My thought is that maybe the mixer output has enough in it to drive a power amp directly.

The manual is useless for providing any help. The only thing it tells me are the output voltage and impedance, and the values do seem to be enough to make my power amp happy.

Hmmm....me and my damned whacko ideas.... scratch

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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:14 pm

go old school and find one of these 20 year old relics Smile

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocktron-Gainiac-Tube-Series_W0QQitemZ220535305721QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_Accessories?hash=item3358edb5f9

that one is less than a hundred...

if you lived on the east coast I would UPS mine to you to try it out and if you didn't like it you could ship it back all within a week...


.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:12 pm

EricHaven wrote:
Thanks Guys! Wink

Stephen, the thing is that I have tried any different distortions and overdrives, and none of them even comes close to sounding like the DOD/Digitech Grunge does. If I knew that the Paia sounded the same, then I would go for it. And if I ever do find another source for that same, exact tone, then I'll be all over it.

Martin, I did consider going into some sort of preamp or EQ pedal for the boost. But part of my thought process centers around the fact that the newer Digitech Grunge pedals have two outputs. One is for going directly into an amp, the other is for going into a mixer board, and has an additional cabinet simulation. My thought is that maybe the mixer output has enough in it to drive a power amp directly.

The manual is useless for providing any help. The only thing it tells me are the output voltage and impedance, and the values do seem to be enough to make my power amp happy.

Hmmm....me and my damned whacko ideas.... scratch

What i mean is running the grungey pedel into a A recording preamp like that paia one i sent you. so you can get the distortion you like and some preamp, without colouring the sound too much Wink
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:46 pm

i'm gonna approach this suggestion from a different angle eric. i sympathize with you that sometimes you just cant get what you want.

my approach ... build it.

i gotta do some research, but someone here posted a link for a guy who sells obsolete effect pedal kits, parts to build customs and offers a breadbox to work out and experiment with circuitry. perhaps you cant build a whole processor, but you can work out the effect you need.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:42 pm

I'm not sure I understand the problem here. Is it that you can't get enough output out of the grunge? Because a clean boost would do that for a lot cheaper than a preamp pedal, and would be much more transparent if you got a good one.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:15 pm

Mike, if only we were closer. I would love to test-drive that Gainiac! How much noise does it have?

MadMike, I have seriously considered building such a pedal/unit. In fact, if this thing with Alien Probe leads somewhere meaningful where I can get the attention of some preamp manufacturers, I might very well commission one of them to build me a custom unit. Heck, maybe I'll design and build an entire amplifier system!

KS, the problem is that whenever I run the Grunge pedal through any sort of amp, something gets lost. I mean sure, it does still work, and it sounds killer....BUT....it doesn't give me the exact tonal response I am after. The only time I nailed it perfectly was when I ran my old DOD G7 straight into the power amp section of my old Fender BXR Dual Bass 400. Of course, the G7 is a preamp, and it has all of the necessary gain and EQ stages to properly drive a power amp.

So my bandmates have been rallying around me in my quest. My drummer Doug turned me onto his amp (he plays guitar and bass besides the drums), and he has been letting me use it. Don't laugh. It's a little 100 watt GK 250ML. And you know what? It actually works really well! We jammed last night, and I used it going into my 1x15 for my distortion channel, and it came very close to being perfect. Still, I don't see this as a long-term solution, but rather, a quick fix in the mean time.

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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:41 pm

EricHaven wrote:
Mike, if only we were closer. I would love to test-drive that Gainiac! How much noise does it have?

MadMike, I have seriously considered building such a pedal/unit. In fact, if this thing with Alien Probe leads somewhere meaningful where I can get the attention of some preamp manufacturers, I might very well commission one of them to build me a custom unit. Heck, maybe I'll design and build an entire amplifier system!

KS, the problem is that whenever I run the Grunge pedal through any sort of amp, something gets lost. I mean sure, it does still work, and it sounds killer....BUT....it doesn't give me the exact tonal response I am after. The only time I nailed it perfectly was when I ran my old DOD G7 straight into the power amp section of my old Fender BXR Dual Bass 400. Of course, the G7 is a preamp, and it has all of the necessary gain and EQ stages to properly drive a power amp.

So my bandmates have been rallying around me in my quest. My drummer Doug turned me onto his amp (he plays guitar and bass besides the drums), and he has been letting me use it. Don't laugh. It's a little 100 watt GK 250ML. And you know what? It actually works really well! We jammed last night, and I used it going into my 1x15 for my distortion channel, and it came very close to being perfect. Still, I don't see this as a long-term solution, but rather, a quick fix in the mean time.

Maybe the only solution is finding more and more DOD G7's

a few seem to come up
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/DOD-G7-19-RACK-GUITAR-PROCESSOR-USED_W0QQitemZ320463514571QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Guitar_Accessories?hash=item4a9d1d2bcb#ht_500wt_956
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:37 pm

aww ... look at the little cute gk. goochi coo you little amp you!

ha! Laughing

ah ... i played my little gk for years. i can see how that general gk sound would work for your sound eric. lots of attack and punch.

furreal ... the sound i'm shooting for with the seprate effects channel ... i'm just gonna need to go buy another amp and set of cabs to get it right. do the dual mono thing. i have multiple ways i can split the channel; from the processor, from the bi - amp or from the preamp i just bought ... 20 seconds ago. probably just gonna redo the same rig i got now ... just all 15" speakers for driving clean channel low end.

so eric, i told you i'de do some research. this guy seems like a real electronics nut. see if you can find some contact info and chew the fat with him one on one. if he doesnt have a product or wont build, or help you build one, he'll probably have a suggestion to overcome your dilemma.

just glancing over his website again, i had a lot of. "ooh, can use one of them!" and "ooh, i'de like 2 of those!"

http://www.beavisaudio.com/

lemme know how you make out.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:15 pm

WOW!!! Groovy!!! Wink I am definitely going to give this guy a ring! Thanks, MadMike!

Just for laughs, and in case anyone was wondering, I did try to run a mono signal into my Behringer pre along with a Marshall Guv pedal through the effects chain, since you can split the signal two ways between the effected and clean signals. I wanted to see if it would work at all, but I had little expectations for it to. Sure enough, it acted exactly as they all have when I have tried to do this. Yes, the tone was not too far off, but all of the harmonic content was lost, and the gain dropped like a rock.

And yes, that little GK is a cute little goochie-koo of an amp, but it screams like a lion in heat! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:03 pm

Ooh the Guv'nor. Fun pedal.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:52 pm

I F***ing love Gk, i just can't afford them Sad
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:16 pm

The only GK sound that I've heard that I've really dug was Dave and Adrian's guitar sounds on Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son. Wow.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:56 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
The only GK sound that I've heard that I've really dug was Dave and Adrian's guitar sounds on Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son. Wow.

I love a punchy metallic finger tone, that's why i'm after a Musicman.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:04 pm

Well that GK that you're using probably sounds great. Even though there are probably much better amps now, people still swear by amps like the 800RB for their studios and backlines. I've seen firsthand how dependable and great they sound, but they just aren't my bag. Damn I mean Flea makes them sound incredible.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:29 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
Well that GK that you're using probably sounds great. Even though there are probably much better amps now, people still swear by amps like the 800RB for their studios and backlines. I've seen firsthand how dependable and great they sound, but they just aren't my bag. Damn I mean Flea makes them sound incredible.

what amps do you like?
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:47 pm

tekkentool wrote:
Chowderboots wrote:
Well that GK that you're using probably sounds great. Even though there are probably much better amps now, people still swear by amps like the 800RB for their studios and backlines. I've seen firsthand how dependable and great they sound, but they just aren't my bag. Damn I mean Flea makes them sound incredible.

what amps do you like?

I like almost any amp, but what I prefer to use would be kinda along the lines of "British" guitar amps, like Marshall, Orange, or Hiwatt. They go well with the strings and basses I use, the way I play, and the speakers I like. I currently have a Mesa 400+, a matching (and beat up) Powerhouse 1000 cabinet, and my trusty Ampeg 4x10. My dream amp would be a Hiwatt CP103, but I've got my sights on getting a Marshall JTM45 or something similar in the next year or so.
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PostSubject: Re: OK....stupid technical question here....   Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:32 am

Chowderboots wrote:
tekkentool wrote:
Chowderboots wrote:
Well that GK that you're using probably sounds great. Even though there are probably much better amps now, people still swear by amps like the 800RB for their studios and backlines. I've seen firsthand how dependable and great they sound, but they just aren't my bag. Damn I mean Flea makes them sound incredible.

what amps do you like?

I like almost any amp, but what I prefer to use would be kinda along the lines of "British" guitar amps, like Marshall, Orange, or Hiwatt. They go well with the strings and basses I use, the way I play, and the speakers I like. I currently have a Mesa 400+, a matching (and beat up) Powerhouse 1000 cabinet, and my trusty Ampeg 4x10. My dream amp would be a Hiwatt CP103, but I've got my sights on getting a Marshall JTM45 or something similar in the next year or so.

Mesa 400+ excellent! i want one of those! unfortunately they seem to be rather expensive second hand around here!.
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