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tekkentool

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PostSubject: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:36 pm

hello all, i've been looking into purchasing a kahler 7410. but there seems to be a niggling thought in my mind that i need to clear up.

the kahler 7410 is cheaper than the rest of the kahler's, and no routing needs to be done, whereas on the other's kahlers it is necessary.

this seems to me to all be conducive towards the 7410 not performing as well as the other kahler tremolo's. i could get used to them not staying in tune as well (planning on locking tuner's anyhow) i'm just wondering if there is any range disadvantage the the 7410 series?
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:17 pm

you'de need to chek with eric ... he's used older kahlers 24XX (before there was the hybrid 74XX). my understanding is the newer ones (even the 24XX's) are made from cheaper materials. i think the only parts that are cheaper are the base and the cam.

i use 7410's and have never had a problem. i've tried different trem systems and i think ultimately its a matter of taste. i like the hipshots too ... but i just dont want to remove all that material clean thru my bass to install it. stienberger trems are silky smooth ... but i dont have money for that.

in my book, kahler makes the best product.

i dont know where you got the info that you DONT have to rout to install a 7410. YOU DO. you also have to take into consideration the string height you need from the base of the kahler on the bass your installing it on. both basses i've installed kahlers on had to have the base of the kahler recessed in the body in order to get the string height low enuff with enuff angle up on the string roller housings so the action on the frets is low enuff without vibrating on the roller housings. this means dual routing ... pocket for mechanical movement space and recess for proper height placement. if the rollers are dropped too low to get proper action (if you can get it even close), the strings will buzz on the roller housings.

need a 7410 schematic?????
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Sun Jan 03, 2010 8:08 pm

Yep, MadMike nailed it. Stephen, you absolutely have to route your bass for a Kahler, and it's the exact same sized pocket for both the 2400 series and the 7410.

And he is also correct in having to have two routings. One for the outer frame of the whole unit to counter-sink into the body, and the second beneath the cam to allow it to clear the body of the bass underneath the trem. Many players (myself included back in the early days) thought that simply mounting the trem on top of the body was enough, but then it was discovered that on many bass models done like this, you could not lower your action enough to be playable without bottoming out on the intonation adjustment screws. Here is a link that shows the correct routing procedure :

http://www.timeelect.com/kabass.htm

And yes, I have owned several 2410's, and several 7410's. The 2400 series are still made by Kahler, but they are entirely steel and brass, and are hand-made. The 7410's have some aluminum parts, and are machine-made. Honestly, I can hardly tell the diff, and believe me, I torture my trems. The only major difference is that they seem to be selling the 7410's with slightly shorter trem arms, and I'm not totally certain if this is also true of the 2400 series or not. But fortunately, there are a number of good after-market arms available.

And if you need a detailed outline of where and how to place your trem for the best possible routing spot, MadMike's your Guy! He has drafted an absolutely superior diagram of the placement that makes the stock photocopy drawing Kahler gives you look like a child's drawing.

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tekkentool

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:04 am

Words don't accurately describe how legendary you guys are Very Happy thanks for the replies. Some person on a forum reccomended these saying you didn't have to route them unlike the 24xx series Mad Again thank you guys and Yes i would love that routing diagram mike!


I've been thinking about getting into luthier-age for a while now, do you think i'd be able to route this alright into an alder body? bounce

again thanks! you guys are amazing!
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:20 am

tekkentool wrote:
do you think i'd be able to route this alright into an alder body? bounce

I done one into an alder body, with nothing but a chisel, a drill and a dremmel, you should manage just fine if you have a router.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:18 pm

I guess I was one of the lucky one's who didn't have to have the trem recessed Smile


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EricHaven
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:59 pm

tekkentool wrote:
Words don't accurately describe how legendary you guys are Very Happy thanks for the replies.

Nah. We're all just legends in our own minds! Laughing

Seriously, (hold on Gang, I'm about to repeat myself again for the umpteenth time) this is why I created this place. When I first began my bass trem odyssey back in 1984, there weren't any resources available to get any advice or help. And a bass trem does have a lot of similarities to a guitar trem, but there are also some crucial differences as well. So here we are. A place where bassists who trem can get some answers and advice, and maybe a laugh or two along the way.

Mike, my first two basses also did not require countersinking, but this is a fluke. It is more the exception that you can simply top-mount a Kahler bass trem and have it work, instead of the rule. So you are indeed one of the lucky ones. Wink

And Stephen, I strongly suggest getting some luthier/woodworking skills and/or training underneath you before tearing into your bass. You want to have some sort of woodworking knowledge before doing it yourself, but it is true that the install isn't terribly hard to do, either. I'm certainly no master woodworker, but I know enough that I'm not going to destroy my bass. I have owned close to a dozen Kahler bass trems over the years, and the only one that I paid someone to install was my very first one in 1984. All others I have done myself using simple hand tools, and a lot of patience! Wink

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Darkstrike



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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:10 pm

Some day, Eric, you'll have to tell us all why this place came into being......
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tekkentool

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:09 pm

Darkstrike wrote:
Some day, Eric, you'll have to tell us all why this place came into being......

tragic home brewing accident Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:48 pm

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Twisted Evil

Oh....you funny Guys, you! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:08 pm

now i'm repeating myself .......






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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:13 pm

madmike wrote:
now i'm repeating myself .......







Thanks a Bunch mate!, anyone know if these will Fit nicely on an SX p copy? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:00 pm

tekkentool wrote:
madmike wrote:
now i'm repeating myself .......







Thanks a Bunch mate!, anyone know if these will Fit nicely on an SX p copy? Wink

Should work nicely.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:45 pm

Excellent Cool Thankyou very much!
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 6:56 am

tekkentool wrote:
Thanks a Bunch mate!, anyone know if these will Fit nicely on an SX p copy? Wink

I've since changed the pickguard to white, and added a bridge pickup, but, here's one SX P copy, with trem. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:18 pm

Darkstrike wrote:
tekkentool wrote:
Thanks a Bunch mate!, anyone know if these will Fit nicely on an SX p copy? Wink

I've since changed the pickguard to white, and added a bridge pickup, but, here's one SX P copy, with trem. Smile


Woah a white pickguard? Can you please post a photo of how it currently looks?

Is it still a 5 string? What a Face
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:04 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
Woah a white pickguard? Can you please post a photo of how it currently looks?

Is it still a 5 string? What a Face

I'll take one tomorrow, and currently, its back to four.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:18 pm

Darkstrike wrote:
Chowderboots wrote:
Woah a white pickguard? Can you please post a photo of how it currently looks?

Is it still a 5 string? What a Face

I'll take one tomorrow, and currently, its back to four.

Sweet. Still with the gold rounds?

Man, some day, I want a bass with all gold hardware...
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:35 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
Darkstrike wrote:
Chowderboots wrote:
Woah a white pickguard? Can you please post a photo of how it currently looks?

Is it still a 5 string? What a Face

I'll take one tomorrow, and currently, its back to four.

Sweet. Still with the gold rounds?

Man, some day, I want a bass with all gold hardware...

The very same set from over a year ago when I installed the X2N-7.

I'd love an all gold hardware bass too, they just look swanky. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:29 pm

That is the most outright insane tort pickguard i have ever seen affraid
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:35 pm




As it stands now, the tort guard is on a black bass, where it suits much, much better.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:43 pm

It needs a mighty mite maple neck and that bridge pup needs to be change to a jj pup... Yeah! Like the Fender DLX pbass
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:24 pm

T. Gunn wrote:
It needs a mighty mite maple neck and that bridge pup needs to be change to a jj pup... Yeah! Like the Fender DLX pbass


Or how about not?

I know what I'm doing with my own bass. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:35 pm

LOL yeah. It is dying for a neck pup though... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:45 pm

T. Gunn wrote:
LOL yeah. It is dying for a neck pup though... Very Happy

Trust me, it isn't.




I have a *much* better plan.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:10 pm

Oh! Oh! May I know!?
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:25 pm

Just to throw in my two-cents, my main axe is an SX P, and my Kahler works perfectly.

And I agree with Bill. He definitely knows what he is doing when it comes to bass mods! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:50 pm

I've never seen any of your basses... pics? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 8:10 pm

Oh....awright. Wink

http://basstremfanatics.forumotion.net/the-rest-of-us-f6/okmy-sx-is-finished-t226.htm

Be kind, as I went at it with my usual hack-it-to-make-it-work-and-I-don't-care-if-it's-ugly approach. Besides, my SX was only $100 shipped, and I am going to replace it with a new Yamaha BB once I get the cash to do so. And once I get my new bass and hardware, I am going to have everything professionally done. But for now, my SX does everything I want it to.

And I did manage to clean up the pickguard, and remove the black tape. Wink

And I do have some newer pictures with the X2N-7 installed, but I'm not sure where they are. I'll try to find them and re-post.

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:33 pm

I'm going black on Metal pickguard for my FrankenSX.

for the steve vai JEM look Smile

http://www.ibanez.com/ElectricGuitars/model-JEM7EAFX

unfortunately SX don't make a bass with a vine of life inlay
Mad
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:05 am

Ebay is your friend.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tree-Of-Life-BP-Fret-Marker-Inlay-Sticker-Bass-Maple_W0QQitemZ120451671626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0b7aa64a

I was amazed by this. I did not buy one tough, because the measurements are for a long scale bass....
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:27 am

inlays?

people tend to forget antoniosai's junk he loads up with huge amounts of outrageous inlays....

http://stores.ebay.com/Antoniotsais-Guitar-Mandolin-Arts__W0QQ_sidZ54270176QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=1 Like a Star @ heaven
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:25 pm

NoobOnRoad wrote:
Ebay is your friend.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Tree-Of-Life-BP-Fret-Marker-Inlay-Sticker-Bass-Maple_W0QQitemZ120451671626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0b7aa64a

I was amazed by this. I did not buy one tough, because the measurements are for a long scale bass....

thankyou very much!, they look very high quality!
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:28 pm

amimbari wrote:
inlays?

people tend to forget antoniosai's junk he loads up with huge amounts of outrageous inlays....

http://stores.ebay.com/Antoniotsais-Guitar-Mandolin-Arts__W0QQ_sidZ54270176QQ_trksidZp4634Q2ec0Q2em14?_pgn=1 Like a Star @ heaven

Why Are they so cheap? they look magnificent! neck through basses with about 7 layers and poplar tops?


For 600 bucks? what's up with that. That's less than classic vibe P basses cost here.

yes they cost about 800 usd here.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:10 pm

Cool sx! Does a trem really come that close to a bridge pup!?
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:35 pm

T. Gunn wrote:
Cool sx! Does a trem really come that close to a bridge pup!?
ya Tommy, very close on a lot of bodies...


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tekkentool

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:44 pm

So it's tight, but i'd be able to keep my bridge J yes?
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:15 pm

Yeah... can't do much with it though!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfv0g_4xtEs


Might help.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:26 pm

T. Gunn wrote:
Yeah... can't do much with it though!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfv0g_4xtEs


Might help.

looks pretty easy actually, especially because i have access to a proper router.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:36 pm

you gotta measure to be sure.

you got about 1.5" from your intonation line to the front of the base of the kahler.

you want a bit of wood left there ... right?

i've had it so the pickup is pushed to the front of the tolerance of the pocket just out of touch with the bridge.

i've nudged pickups forward too.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:41 pm

that youtube ... i'm impressed how nice of a job he did with doing that routing freehand!
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:47 pm

madmike wrote:
that youtube ... i'm impressed how nice of a job he did with doing that routing freehand!

Oh yeah, looked really nice once the trem was on, i'm only putting this on a P bass copy, and these seem to fit pretty well on p basses. So i think it'll be cool guys, thanks for all the help Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:57 pm

yes, they fit very nicely ... even with some extra room.

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:22 pm

Honestly, I didn't mind sacrificing the pocket for the J/bridge pickup, as I never, ever use that sound or position for anything I do.

But it is a valid concern, and as Everyone has said, it can be made to fit. You just have to be really careful and precise with the measurements. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:38 pm

Darkstrike...wow. Wow. That SX looks great! The white pickguard looks nice and the X2N-7 looks so natural in that spot. Have the X2N's pole pieces worn down a bit? They don't look quite so black any more?
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:46 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
Darkstrike...wow. Wow. That SX looks great! The white pickguard looks nice and the X2N-7 looks so natural in that spot. Have the X2N's pole pieces worn down a bit? They don't look quite so black any more?

I'm actually really happy with the white pickguard, it pops.

As for the X2N-7, its just lighting, I got spotlight pointed on it, is all, light reflecting.
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:49 pm

Either that, or the pole pieces are melting from the pickup being so hot! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:37 pm

EricHaven wrote:
Either that, or the pole pieces are melting from the pickup being so hot! Laughing

What Do X2n-7's on a bass actually sound like Suspect Does anyone have a demo? rabbit
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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:41 pm

I have my band's tracks on my MySpace page, but since I use the X2N-7 for my distortion channel, I don't think it will give you an idea of how the pickup sounds. But I can tell you that whenever I try plugging my X2N-7's output into my clean side, the tone is unreal. It's like a P, only richer and deeper.

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PostSubject: Re: 7410 performance disadvantage?   Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:10 pm

Darkstrike wrote:
Chowderboots wrote:
Darkstrike...wow. Wow. That SX looks great! The white pickguard looks nice and the X2N-7 looks so natural in that spot. Have the X2N's pole pieces worn down a bit? They don't look quite so black any more?

I'm actually really happy with the white pickguard, it pops.

As for the X2N-7, its just lighting, I got spotlight pointed on it, is all, light reflecting.

Mhmm it really does!

Ah, I see. It looks cool, though.

EricHaven wrote:
Either that, or the pole pieces are melting from the pickup being so hot! Laughing

Haha yeah...but I was kinda dismayed when I got my X2Ns that the pole pieces weren't shiny like they used to be. I guess DiMarzio covers most of the pole pieces on their pickups with that black finish instead of the chrome on pickups like the Super Distortion.

tekkentool wrote:
EricHaven wrote:
Either that, or the pole pieces are melting from the pickup being so hot! Laughing

What Do X2n-7's on a bass actually sound like Suspect Does anyone have a demo? rabbit

I found that the X2N really responds to the type of instrument that it's in. They sound awesome if you have a decent, bright guitar, but not so good in darker or more poorly made instrument. I had a couple in a really dark sounding Ibanez and they weren't to my liking (high output pickups/dark guitar=muck, at least for me), but if you put them in something bright and sturdy like a Fender, they will probably sound a lot better. X2Ns are natural and dynamic, but they're searing loud. They unleash the best potential sound of your guitar, but with through-the-roof gain. You can wire it series for the traditional sound, parallel for lower output and brighter, or in coil tap mode for a sound similar to a P pickup. The X2N is beefy, but the X2N-7 has more low end, more output, and wider pole pieces which means that you can mount it further back on almost any 4 string and not have the outer strings drop out which can happen with a standard X2N.
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