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BoboMcNipples

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PostSubject: noob question   Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:47 pm

I was at my local music shop to drop off my bass because of an input jack problem and the owner of the store was at the counter. I asked him if they would do the routing for me to put a Kahler whammy bar in. He said something like "oh you dont wanna do that, it would sound horrible, it'll mess up your tone, you have to put springs in it".

Does having a Kahler effect your tone? (other than being able to dive/pull up)

If you have to move the bridge closer to the bridge pickup, will that effect it either?

Eric, I know somebody posted a picture of a bass with the kahler routing in it. Any chance you still have it?
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:16 pm

Usually when I hear someone say such things, it is either out of plain ignorance, or a disdain for the concept. I have heard many shop guys and techs tell me similar things ever since I had my first Kahler done in 1984, yet I have never had any problems with my tone or sustain. It's just my opinion, but when someone tells you these things, it is more than likely out of dis-liking the notion of a bass player using a tremolo. You know, the old "that's meant for guitar....bass players shouldn't use such things....playing lead guitar on bass....too busy....how would you use one....not practical....blah, blah, blah".

I will ask them if they have actually ever tried one, and the answer I invariably get is something like "well, no....but I once heard of this guy who knew someone who had tried one in a pawn shop, and HE said...." Right, right, right. Sure. Uh-huh.

I then tell them my credentials, how many bands I've played with and who they were, and if it's someone from the San Francisco Bay Area (since I am now in Washington), they'll get a distant look on their face, then they'll say "oh, that's you? Um....you've done a lot of performing, right?" Right, moron. Kahlers haven't hurt my career, but instead, have improved it.

If I sound cynical....well....it's because I am about the subject. If they don't like the concept, tell them thank you for your opinion, and can you do the install or not? If not, can they recommend someone?

Here is the forum link of which you speak for the proper installaton of a Kahler bass tremolo:

http://basstremfanatics.forumotion.net/keeping-it-in-tune-f10/proper-installation-of-a-kahler-bass-tremolo-t21.htm
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amimbari

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Tue Mar 24, 2009 8:23 am

bobo, that's just so funny and typical of people who never had one, and they don't know whats up.

my tone is the same, but the SUSTAIN is 300% better.

reminds me of when I go and check out stuff, and tell them I'm a lefty --oy vey!!!
"yes sir we have lefty basses there's uh....2 of them buried under the 37 squiers over there somewhere"....hahaha

I never see a retail store who caters to leftys in this city.

I wanna play the 2000.00 Ric, not a 159.95 POS Squier Smile ( and you should see their face when I flip a 2000.00 bass over )

so I tease them a little by pretending I'm a noob for a couple minutes THEN go crazy insane, that shuts their foolish ignorant mouths fast enough sunny

( and it tends to draw a crowd as I would want to check out a flipper as well )
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BoboMcNipples

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Tue Mar 24, 2009 9:53 am

amimbari wrote:
bobo, that's just so funny and typical of people who never had one, and they don't know whats up.

my tone is the same, but the SUSTAIN is 300% better.

reminds me of when I go and check out stuff, and tell them I'm a lefty --oy vey!!!
"yes sir we have lefty basses there's uh....2 of them buried under the 37 squiers over there somewhere"....hahaha

I never see a retail store who caters to leftys in this city.

I wanna play the 2000.00 Ric, not a 159.95 POS Squier Smile ( and you should see their face when I flip a 2000.00 bass over )

so I tease them a little by pretending I'm a noob for a couple minutes THEN go crazy insane, that shuts their foolish ignorant mouths fast enough sunny

( and it tends to draw a crowd as I would want to check out a flipper as well )

haha thats so funny. i didnt know it actually helped sustain. thanks
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:14 am

Bobo, I am unfortunately saddened by ignorant people, just like many others. Yes I do not use the Kahler enough for me to warrant me buying 3 more for 3 other basses, but like I said, even with the spring tension loose, it is a GREAT sustainer, and stays in tune 100% all the time.

perhaps the fool who said "uh, what you gonna do with that besides make silly noises", perhaps never really tried one out for more than 15 minutes, and that's all the experience he had with it, cause in my first 15 minutes, I thought it was just a stupid toy that I would get sick of. ( found out it isn't )

If that Kahler did not make my otherwise piss-poor OEM lightweight bridge/passive pickups sustain better, I would sell the bass for a couple hundred tomorrow, and be done with it.

Once I get into the "create some wild EricHaven riffs" mood, I will use the heck out of it, but for what I normally play, it's just a great bridge, period.......
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EricHaven
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:10 pm

Just as Mike is saying, there is this stigma about bass players wanting to do anything other than what many consider "normal". Most of the time, such attitudes come from guitarists who have somehow gotten it in their heads that bass players are only there to serve their needs. Like we are subservient to them.

Then there are bass players who have no grasp of the concept of trying something different. I used to get more than a few disparaging comments from other bass players that had gotten themselves trapped within this notion that the bass is only for quarter notes, or some other similar nonsense, and they would look at what I was doing and say "that's not truly playing bass".

Really, now? scratch

But these are the same guys who will endlessly sing the praise of Jaco Pastorius, John Entwistle, Geddy Lee, Victor Wooten, Billy Sheehan, etc., etc., etc. So I'll ask them what is it about these other players that makes them exempt from the "not-playing-outside-the-lines" rule, and usually they will say, "well, they're famous!"

Ah.

Now I see.

So in order to justify doing something different and artistic, one has to become famous while doing so, right?

So sorry, but if there is a larger pile of BS out there, I'd sure like to see it.

I will then have to remind the naysayers that these aformentioned players didn't start out famous, but worked at it. Which means they also spent years catching flack for doing something different. Oh....but when fame came to them, all of a sudden it's "we want you to endorse our product, play on our CD, speak at this or that seminar....". And somehow this makes it OK for them to be different, since a lot of other people give them attention for doing so. But again, they didn't start out being famous.

So what it boils down to is that since I will never be more well-known than I am now, somehow that means that I am not permitted to doing something I love to do?

Music is art.

Art is expression.

Expression is showing a personal side of one's soul.

This is why I get so angry with narrow-minded folks. Because to insist that something like using a tremolo, tapping, distortion, playing a righty bass flipped lefty, etc., is somehow wrong is to say that expressing your art is wrong.

Not everyone has to paint with water colors. Not everyone has to appreciate Van Gogh.

Like I always say, I am going to play my bass the way I want to, and I will use any tools, tricks, and techniques I want to in order to achieve the results I want.

And as long as what I do contributes to the architecture of the band and the music, and I still do my job as rhythm-anchor effectively, then anyone who doesn't like what I do can go listen to someone else.

They can also kiss my skinny, white arse! Twisted Evil

Bottom line: DO WHAT YOU ENJOY DOING ON BASS!
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Chowderboots

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:45 pm

Hear, hear! Kahler bridges are so straightforward to set up and they're so versatile. I think they have a unique feel and sound and they can fit almost any shoe. I wish I had them on all my basses, tremolo if possible on the appropriate basses, but I'll bet the hardtail ones are killer as well...Mike?
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amimbari

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:18 am

yes Martin, the 2440 on my TBX is just the same, large heavy, and sustain-full. ( I think the wood has a "little" to do with it as well ), but for this topic, I'll just say YES Smile
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Mo Beach

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:08 am

Find a Luthier and bypass music stores all together. The store is going to get a commission for doing nothing except delivering it to the Luthier anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:09 am

How's the adjustability on your 2440? For example, on the tremolos, the saddle height adjustment and intonation screws are underneath the string. Where are they on the fixed bridges (can you adjust the strings without having to take the strings off)?

Agreed. A bona fide luthier might be a little spendier, but it's worth it, I think.
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:17 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
How's the adjustability on your 2440? For example, on the tremolos, the saddle height adjustment and intonation screws are underneath the string. Where are they on the fixed bridges (can you adjust the strings without having to take the strings off)?

I'll do you one better...look for yourself Smile


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EricHaven
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:14 pm

To further clarify Mike/ami's photo, the string height adjusters are those little round thingys located about the middle of the bridge that the strings sit in. They are really just large screws, and you adjust them by using a screwdriver or a coin into the string slot to turn them. So unfortunately, you cannot change the action without popping the string out first.
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amimbari

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:25 pm

ya.....what he said BUT once it is done, it is done -- I only adjust the intonation if it needs it if the new set of strings are out or need a little height tweaking. but I'm not a "change the strings every month" guy, so it never mattered from all the years I played on it.

OR:

ya it is a pain in the butt, but I deal with it. cheers
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Chowderboots

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:43 am

Good to know. I still want to try one out. I leave my strings on as long as possible (the ones on some of my basses have been on over a year).
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:54 am

haha Martin, go find a 90 something Concert V with the factory 2450 bridge on it....

then you will have a kahler fixed bridge on one of your "favorite" branded axes Smile

JACKSON!!!!
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Chowderboots

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:45 pm

Indeed! Very Happy My Charvel will get a 2440 and DiMarzios some day.
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:38 am

i like that eric responded to noob first.

i like it when eric gets salty over bass tremolo ignorance.

noob, i think everyone answered your question about what they think about your local music supplier there. personally, i rarely go to music stores; i almost always leave either having spent to much, empty handed, with something that isnt exactly what i want or just plain po'ed. i'de rather search for parts and equipment online. if anythin, i dont have to go get it ... they'll ship the stuff right to my door.

i dont have a very high opinion of luthiers in my area either. overpriced and not really talented. i've left basses with them to do something that i cant do myself, like re-steam press a fitted neck on a 1972 guild ls-II, only to leave it there with them and refuse to pay for the hack job they did to my collectors bass.

i dont think anyone answered your question about placing the new tremolo closer to the pickup. DONT DO IT! there is a specific place the tremolo needs to reside so that the saddles and their forward and backward adjustment falls within the range of the basses intonation. intonation is necessary so that the scales of the octaves and the notes between are true up the neck. example ... if you strike an open A string, the note shud ring a true A on that sting on the 12th fret. if the saddle is forward or away from the intonation point it wont.

find the intonation point on your bass by marking the middle point of the forward and backward adjustments of the saddles of the current bridge on the body or a piece of tape stuck to the body. the new kahlers intonation adjustment of the saddles shud be placed in the middle of the range of its adjustment (so when installed, you will have the maximum +- of that adjustment). the line that the saddles are in shud land right on the line you marked on your bass. this is where the base of the kahler needs to be mounted onto your bass. i think i figured theres about +- .2" tolerance for this with a 4 string bass.

in other words ... dont move where the bridge goes as it will not provide the true functionallity of the instrument. instead, its usually easier to move a pickup.

tone and sustain ... my bass has better tone and sustain with the kahler on it.

i have a bunch of installation pictures and diagram specs i drew up. your gonna hafta wait till i have time this weekend to post them.

with the proper tools and some patience, installing a kahler is not that big of a deal. its your bass, so you'll probably take more care of it during an installation than a luthier and you'll gain some knowledge and experience on repairing your own instruments. in the last year, i have learned so much, that probably the only thing i cant do now is a fret job.
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:01 am

too bad NOOB dont got a Tbird M-Mike, this thing has a HUGE amount of room to mount the thing for proper intonation Smile

this is Andre's Jacksonbird C/S, a friend of mine from Germany ( c/s = customShopUSA ) he just bought not too long ago after I told him it was available, with a 2410 already on it ( he changed the trim screws to gold and gold bar )

GOLD or not, THATS the long a** bar I want for mine !!! ( eh....someday )

he is the ONLY other person in the world who has a TBX's like mine ( he has the other 2 -green sparkle, and black like mine with a pickguard ), and if the damn things weren't so rare, I would add a 2410 to mine just like this C/S bird next week, cause THAT LOOKS BAd-A**.



Last edited by amimbari on Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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BoboMcNipples

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:25 am

moving my bridge pickup is out of the question. can i still get proper installment with this much room madmike?





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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:27 pm

LOL! Salty, am I MadMike? Razz

I'm just a cynical old coot when it comes to prejudice born out of ignorance.

BTW, good catch in that we missed Bobo's question.

Mike/Ami, that T-Bird is gorgeous! Makes me actually consider one!

Bobo, I have an idea. To be sure that you have enough real estate on your bass for a Kahler, take the measurements from the very bottom of the treble pickup down to the bottom of the bass body, and be sure to indicate where your intonation lines falls within this range. Post your findings here, and we can check them on our own Kahlers to be sure one will fit on your bass.

See? Wink
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BoboMcNipples

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:47 pm

EricHaven wrote:
LOL! Salty, am I MadMike? Razz

I'm just a cynical old coot when it comes to prejudice born out of ignorance.

BTW, good catch in that we missed Bobo's question.

Mike/Ami, that T-Bird is gorgeous! Makes me actually consider one!

Bobo, I have an idea. To be sure that you have enough real estate on your bass for a Kahler, take the measurements from the very bottom of the treble pickup down to the bottom of the bass body, and be sure to indicate where your intonation lines falls within this range. Post your findings here, and we can check them on our own Kahlers to be sure one will fit on your bass.

See? Wink

mmmkay
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:35 pm

Oh yeah...good post, amimbari. That is one gorgeous bass.
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:36 pm

Oh yeah...good post, amimbari. That is one gorgeous bass. He stated that all the brass parts and the arm are from Frets On The Net. I'll have to hit that place up for some hardware soon. Cool
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:14 am

oh man!!! that T-bird is KILLER!!!! I'm starting aproject from an old friend of mine -
he sent me a t-bird body...working on getting a lefty P or J bass neck, MM pickup
and either a Kahler or Hipshot...like a Entwistle "fenderbird" with a bit more attitude!
cheers, JOhn
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Sat Mar 28, 2009 2:36 pm

I could easily picture you playing a FenderBird, John! Wink

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BoboMcNipples

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:30 am

The bridge pickup is about 1.6 inches from the B string saddle

SEE?!1!?!!



There is about a 4/8 inch gap inbetween the ending of the bridge and the ending of the bass (flat part) down the center



3/8 inch gap between ending of bridge and ending of bass on the B string side (flat part).



Since i figured most of ya guys use 4 strings i measured from the end of the bridge pickup to the G string saddle

1.5 inches



3.5 inches from the bridge pickup to the bottom of the bass
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:53 pm

Agh I'd love to measure my bass now, but I'm about to crash, BBMN. Tomorrow, perhaps, but then someone'll have beaten me to it...

And that sounds like a WICKED bass, John!!! affraid
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Thu Apr 02, 2009 5:21 pm

BoboMcNipples wrote:
The bridge pickup is about 1.6 inches from the B string saddle

SEE?!1!?!!



There is about a 4/8 inch gap inbetween the ending of the bridge and the ending of the bass (flat part) down the center



3/8 inch gap between ending of bridge and ending of bass on the B string side (flat part).



Since i figured most of ya guys use 4 strings i measured from the end of the bridge pickup to the G string saddle

1.5 inches



3.5 inches from the bridge pickup to the bottom of the bass


lol somebody mesure their kahler for me
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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:13 pm

OK GANG. Our Brother is in need here. Cool

I do not use a fiver, so I cannot provide you with the measurements you need. But I know that a few guys here have the new fivers, and since they are now made with the exact same frame as the sixer is, it is absolutely critical that you get the right numbers to determine if it can be done or not.

GUYS? Anyone with a new fiver/sixer that can give BBMN the low down? cheers

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PostSubject: Re: noob question   Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:17 pm

I only have a 4 stringer. But I still think a Hipshot would be a better(or easier) fit on that bass.
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