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EricHaven
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PostSubject: Acoustic anyone?   Thu Oct 15, 2009 5:19 pm

It is really coming down to the wire for me. I must get a new rig together, as I now have the chance to form one of (or all of, for that matter) three different bands with my guitarist buddy Andy Beech.

So the time has come for me to build a rig back up. How I am going to finance it at this point, I have no clue. But I am starting to look at different amplifiers, and one name that has come up as an economical and quality choice is Acoustic. I have read tons of reviews that sing their praises, so I feel that this might be a good way to go.

Playing around with Photoshop, here is an idea of what I'd like to run:



This consists of two of their 4x10 cabinets powered by their 600 watt head (the one pictured is the 200 watt version, but they look the same) for my low/clean channel, and their 200 watt 1x15 combo along with another 1x15 cabinet for my distortion channel. Total cost from Musicians Friend would be $1,650 for the whole thing. Not too bad, but still a bit out of my reach. And I might settle for just one 4x10, the 600 watt head, and the 200 watt combo for $1,150 until I can get the rest of it.

So has anyone had any experience with Acoustic? Good? Bad?

Any other brands that won't break the bank?

And despite my own positive experiences with Behringer, I have elected not to go this route anymore. Not only have they discontinued most of their bass amp line, but I am now also reading quite a few reviews that tell horror stories of their products going up in smoke after only a few months. It would seem that I got lucky with mine, but it's not a gamble I want to take anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Thu Oct 15, 2009 6:30 pm

If they were older Behringers, you weren't lucky, they were just made better back then. As for Acoustic amps, IDK, never used them, but they seem to get a lot of love over at UG.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:44 pm

That's awesome! Let us know how your potential projects pan out! Very Happy

I really like the look of that rig. It makes you do a double take. It's compact, modular, and probably plenty loud. And it's really unique. I like the way the combo fits in with everything else. Class. Normally, I'd recommend Carvin for a high quality, cheap rig, but Acoustic has Carvin beat on the price.

I've played through the B600H briefly and I remembered thinking it was pretty cool. I didn't mess with it for long, though. I can't remember what cab it was plugged in to. I know they have some Acoustic gear in stock at the local GC. Next time I need strings or something, I'll give some Acoustic gear a more thorough trial and see how I like it. To satisfy both of our curiosities.

Pity about Behringer. Why are they discontinuing so many bass products?

I read several testimonies on TalkBass that state that the some of the old Acoustic amps' circuitry is really easy to fry, but so many people swear by their reliability and quality, especially for such a low price. I don't think that the new Acoustic products have the issues that were present in older models.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:22 pm

I'm not sure why Behringer is thinning the herd, and I can't even speculate too much. The only possible thing I can think of is the reports I've been getting about their stuff going up in flames, so maybe they are going to do a re-vamp. A pity, since I did love the gear that I had from them. But, as KS said, maybe it's from the older versions being better made.

I haven't heard anything about the older Acoustic amps going bad, but I don't doubt it if others have said so. And I poured over many reviews of the new gear, and it caught me by surprise that so many people gave their current stuff nothing but positive reviews. And I did own an Acoustic cabinet once, and I have also played through their amps before, and I liked them all.

I have also flirted with the idea of going with Carvin more than once, but something always seems to stop me from going ahead with it (besides the $$$). For some reason, I have the same attitude towards Ampeg, but that's probably more to do with the fact that they are the brand that "everyone" uses, or used to use. It's sort of the same thing with Marshall and guitar players, and I don't usually run with the popular brand, since then it becomes a matter of going with what everyone else thinks instead of my own tastes. And yes, I have played Ampegs before, and they weren't particularly exciting to me. Plus, they tend to run on the heavy side as far as bass rigs go. The thought of lugging a 40 pound tube head around to gigs does NOT appeal to me in the slightest.

Now, if anyone here plays through and likes any of the names I've mentioned, then that's great! I'm not about to tell anyone that they're wrong. Just that for me to be totally satisfied takes several different factors. I guess I'm picky in some ways. Like, I once owned a Trace Elliot preamp, and I didn't really care for it. Sure, it was top-of-the-line (and the cost reflected this), but it simply did not have the tone I wanted.

For example, I know that Genz-Benz makes some killer gear, but even if I could afford it, that doesn't mean that it will work for me.

I guess what I'm saying is that, even if economics weren't an issue, I don't know that I would automatically go for the most expensive line. Even if it's less expensive, as long as it works well, then I'll be happy.

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sat Oct 17, 2009 12:35 am

I couldn't agree more. What's the difference between one of my $300 Ibanezes and my $1200+ CS Jackson? Not much. The necks are just as nice and the sound is just as good on my cheapo axes and I'm not afraid to leave them out of the case or modify them how I see fit.

I rely on the amp's character for my sound and I can't get that sound out of any bass head I've played. I can't get that sound out of most guitar amps I've played, either. It's fun to play on bass amps and it makes me smile when people =can get them to sound so incredible, but different strokes. And it doesn't matter to me that Steve Harris, Lemmy, Chris Squire, and John Entwistle may have done similar things in the way they've approached their amplification, but my interest in fancy tube guitar heads doesn't come from them, it comes from the fact that I'm inspired by the sound that I can make with them.

So sure, I'll wind up shelling out a small ransom for a brand new Marshall, but it'll be totally worth it for me.

I know what you mean about Carvin. If I could try their equipment out for myself, I'd be able to make a better decision on what I think of them. But they make some cool looking stuff. I've said it before, but I really like the look of their Mono Block amp.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sat Oct 17, 2009 1:55 am

Shame about Beheringer.

I've no experence with Acoustic, sadly, none here.

But, just to add more pots to the fire, any of your local shops carry Marshall?

I've been pretty damn happy with my Marshall MB stuff, pretty cheap, loud as hell, very versatile.
Even has a dirt channel, little extra smoke, if you remember, I done the X2N-7 dirty clip, through a distortion, and into its dirt channel, for extra gain, and its a nice kick.

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/marshall-amplfiers-speakers-bass-amplifiers?N=100001+338527+201002
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:04 am

Darkstrike wrote:
Shame about Beheringer.

I've no experence with Acoustic, sadly, none here.

But, just to add more pots to the fire, any of your local shops carry Marshall?

I've been pretty damn happy with my Marshall MB stuff, pretty cheap, loud as hell, very versatile.
Even has a dirt channel, little extra smoke, if you remember, I done the X2N-7 dirty clip, through a distortion, and into its dirt channel, for extra gain, and its a nice kick.

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/navigation/marshall-amplfiers-speakers-bass-amplifiers?N=100001+338527+201002

In Kirkland, yeah! The Guitar Center three miles from my house carries all kinds of Marshall amps, old and new. I tried out a guitar through a JTM45 and it sounded beautiful. Hence why I want to buy one and use it for half of my bass rig. What a Face

I don't want to try a bass out through any of them, though. Knowing the folks who work there, they might not want me to do that. And I don't want to look like a douchebag, so I refrain from trying them, you know?

And Eric, every time I look past that Acoustic photoshop you did, I think what a nifty rig that would be.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sat Oct 17, 2009 2:04 pm

Thanks, Martin! It wasn't a perfect picture-hack, but I thought it would at least give me an idea of how it might look.

And I will definitely give Marshall another look, Bill, thank you! I checked out that link, and I have to admit that I like what I see a LOT. DUDE! Not only do they make TWO different 8x10 cabinets, but do they really make a 4x15 cabinet??? YIKES! Shocked

Cost-wise, it would be more than the Acoustic rig, but not by a terrible amount. And I will confess that blasting loudly through a Marshall rig appeals to me quite a bit. Wink

Actually....now that I think about it....I did once jam through a Marshall JCM head and 4x12 cabinet for band practice. I remember that the grind was awesome! But my singer at the time, who owned the amp, was terrified that I was going to murder it with my bass! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:54 am

Glad to be of service.

I like that both the 1x15 combo, and the 4x10, are actually just the head and cabs combined, would be handy to make a rig such as yours somewhat more portable.


Anyway, if you get a chance, try one out, the clean channel is nice and powerful, and the vintage channel can get nasty, espcially with a pedal to drive it. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:03 pm

I can imagine so! And in addition, the idea of running a rig like Lemmy does appeals to me a lot!

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:14 pm

The Lemmy rig is like a dream of mine, but its just waay too expensive. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 1:17 pm

Mhmm, a Super Bass head into a 4x12 and a 4x15. That's essentially what John Entwistle used in '69-'71.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:03 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
Mhmm, a Super Bass head into a 4x12 and a 4x15. That's essentially what John Entwistle used in '69-'71.

Its not really Super Bass anymore, IMHO, as its heavily modded, with parts from a Super Lead, its more of a hybrid now.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:05 pm

Fine, fine...EVERYBODY'S DREAM AMP perched atop a 4x12/4x15...
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:17 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
Fine, fine...EVERYBODY'S DREAM AMP perched atop a 4x12/4x15...


Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:30 pm

eric,

i can relate with you about the high end name brand stuff not working with what your trying to get out of it. i used a gk 700rb for a while and went back to my peavey, suprised at the difference in the sound ... inspite of the 150 less watts. i think the gk would better suit me if i was playing punk ... and i was when i bought it.

i would never drop all that money on an ampeg. great rigs ... and i encourage thos playing a p bass with a pick guys to continue to keep using ampeg, but the tone is just too warm and muddy for me. effects dont cut thru too well either. maybe i just havent played thru the right ampeg ... but i'm not compelled to go find it either.

being in the same boat, looking for a new rig (amp), my decisions have gotten down to three .......

bugera. yeah, i know ... berringer. i wonder if bugera is why they stopped making berringer bass amps. these bugera's look like they offer some nice features ... but they are cheap. the bvp5500 would be enuff. i couldnt imagine anyone having the need for the nuke ... holy smokes! i'de definately go play one of these to hear how it sounds before i bought it.

more expensive .......

carvin. a bx 500 is under 500 bucks. i've always liked carvins approach to amplification.

and just droppin dough, because i dont wanna ever hafta go out and buy another bass rig again ....

mesa. m9 carbine would definately get me there.

i wont get it for a long time ... i just bought a house!

for me ... its looking like the carvin is leading the pack.

i'm interested in what marshall has to offer???
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:24 pm

madmike wrote:
eric,

i can relate with you about the high end name brand stuff not working with what your trying to get out of it. i used a gk 700rb for a while and went back to my peavey, suprised at the difference in the sound ... inspite of the 150 less watts. i think the gk would better suit me if i was playing punk ... and i was when i bought it.

i would never drop all that money on an ampeg. great rigs ... and i encourage thos playing a p bass with a pick guys to continue to keep using ampeg, but the tone is just too warm and muddy for me. effects dont cut thru too well either. maybe i just havent played thru the right ampeg ... but i'm not compelled to go find it either.

being in the same boat, looking for a new rig (amp), my decisions have gotten down to three .......

bugera. yeah, i know ... berringer. i wonder if bugera is why they stopped making berringer bass amps. these bugera's look like they offer some nice features ... but they are cheap. the bvp5500 would be enuff. i couldnt imagine anyone having the need for the nuke ... holy smokes! i'de definately go play one of these to hear how it sounds before i bought it.

more expensive .......

carvin. a bx 500 is under 500 bucks. i've always liked carvins approach to amplification.

and just droppin dough, because i dont wanna ever hafta go out and buy another bass rig again ....

mesa. m9 carbine would definately get me there.

i wont get it for a long time ... i just bought a house!

for me ... its looking like the carvin is leading the pack.

i'm interested in what marshall has to offer???

I've had that experience with newer Ampegs as well. GK amps are neat, but I couldn't ever get the sound I wanted out of them.

I dig Carvin, too. The Redline stuff has always really stood out for me.

And a Mesa M9 is definitely a good amp to look at if you don't want to have to buy another amp again. LOUD. I played one quite a bit through a Mesa 4x10 and 1x15 and it slayed. You can get huge, rumbley lows with incredible articulation or amazing punch. Don't let the size/weight fool you--it's huge.

Marshall's bass amp line is interesting. Check it out:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Marshall,Bass.gc

Speaking of Marshall, my dream rig would consist of these powering a 2x15 and 4x12:
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Marshall-2061X-Handwired-20W-Amp-Head-102788114-i1145876.gc
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Marshall-JTM45-Amp-Head-482793-i1145899.gc

The Lead & Bass 20 is a fascinating amp to me, as is the JTM45. They were both designed with bass in mind, but that's just part of it. They're very unique amps in their own way. My interest in these particular units is based off of my experience with other rectifier/Marshall heads. The 2061X has a solid state rectifier and bare bones controls. It looks like the perfect unit for powering a 2x15. Its versatility doesn't come from the tone controls, but how you use the channels. You can jump them, A/B them, or run into each one individually. And even though it's 20W, it's supposed to be plenty powerful. The JTM45 has simple controls and a really warm, full overdrive that comes from a tube rectifier. It was originally designed as a bass amp. And that's how I'd like to use it. I've played through one and it's exactly what I'm looking for...just with I had the cash.

Considering that the price of both of those amps is $3600, I should get to saving. Smile And at that point, I might as well get the cabs custom made. One day, I'd like to have a high-end, brand new, loud as hell bass rig like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:27 pm

This discussion is good for me, since it makes me think of all my options. Thanks Guys! Wink

I once had a Gallien-Kruger 300 watt head, only they were called GMT back in those days, and mine was actually the guitar version. It was a big brute of an amp that had aluminum handles coming out of the front of it. Later on, I used a later/updated version of the same amp.

Wow! Look what the web can do! I found a picture of both amps! My GMT was exactly the same as the two on the bottom (only, again, mine was the guitar version, and these are the bass versions, but they looked identical), and my other GK was the exact same as the top two:



Actually, I loved both amps a lot. I even had a GK 4x12 cabinet that was pretty decent.

I have played through Carvin Redline rigs on a couple of occasions, and I liked them as well.

Right now....unfortunately....it's economics that's driving my direction at the moment. Just to have something that will work for now, and that I can build on in the near-future.

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:42 pm

What would your ideal setup be, Eric? If cost weren't a deciding factor...
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:18 pm

Awww....shoot....lemme think a bit.... scratch

You know Martin, to be completely honest, it's hard to say. And I mean this as far as specific brands go. But if I had to narrow it down....well....since Bill mentioned Marshall, I have to admit that recently, the thought of standing in front of a stack with their name on it appeals to me a lot. But I'm really not sure which way I would go.

I can at least tell you absolutely what my ideal/fantasy speaker setup would be. Two 8x10 cabinets for the bottom, and four 1x15's for the top, with about 2,000 watts for the lows, and 1,000 watts for the distortion.

Obviously, this would mean once again standing on big stages, and in front of several thousand people. Wink

For now, I think I am going to run with the Acoustic setup, although I might start with just one 1x15 and one 4x10 to test-drive the thing. And if it ends up being what I want, then I'll expand on it with the second 1x15 and 4x10. I have flirted with the idea of an 8x10, but I like the modular portability of two 4x10's instead.

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:48 pm

EricHaven wrote:
Awww....shoot....lemme think a bit.... scratch

You know Martin, to be completely honest, it's hard to say. And I mean this as far as specific brands go. But if I had to narrow it down....well....since Bill mentioned Marshall, I have to admit that recently, the thought of standing in front of a stack with their name on it appeals to me a lot. But I'm really not sure which way I would go.

I can at least tell you absolutely what my ideal/fantasy speaker setup would be. Two 8x10 cabinets for the bottom, and four 1x15's for the top, with about 2,000 watts for the lows, and 1,000 watts for the distortion.

Obviously, this would mean once again standing on big stages, and in front of several thousand people. Wink

For now, I think I am going to run with the Acoustic setup, although I might start with just one 1x15 and one 4x10 to test-drive the thing. And if it ends up being what I want, then I'll expand on it with the second 1x15 and 4x10. I have flirted with the idea of an 8x10, but I like the modular portability of two 4x10's instead.

I understand the idea behind 8x10s for the lows. There's nothing I've played that's better for thunderous bass. What 8x10s have you played that you've liked in particular? What about the 15s. Do you like 1x15s for their portability or for their sound? And why do you prefer 1x15s over 2 or 4x15s? Sorry for all the questions. I'm just thinking a lot. And curious.

The Acoustic rig sounds like a great idea. I'm really curious to hear how it works out for you.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:47 pm

So am I. Unfortunately, financing is proving to be tough. Still, I am hopeful that something will open up for me here soon. Wink

I've played through an Ampeg 8x10, and two different Carvin Redline 8x10's in the past. The Ampeg sounded as you would expect, with extreme lows, and a lot of warmth since I was also using an SVT head at the time.

The Carvin rigs were both powered with their 1200 watt Redline amp heads, and they had thunderous lows with a lot of clarity. I was really impressed!

In the first few years of my playing out live, I used 15's exclusively. First with a single 1x15, then later with a 2x15. Then in the early 90's, I got my first 1x15/4x10 setup. At first, I used the 1x15 for my lows, and the 4x10 for my distortion channel, since it seemed to make sense that way. But something seemed odd about the tonal response. The 1x15 wasn't capable of producing the low-end that I wanted, and the 4x10 didn't respond well to my distortion tone, since it produced a lot of microphonic feedback. So as an experiment, I flipped them. I could not have been more surprised by the results! The 4x10 blew my feet out from under me, and the 1x15 practically sang with a richness and response that I was not expecting at all! The normal feedback response was incredible, and the highs read like never before. So now, my choice for the top will always be either a 1x15 or a 2x15, and my lows will always be played through one 4x10, two 4x10's, or an 8x10.

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:56 pm

Hmm. I love playing a beefy P pickup through my Ampeg 4x10. That might be why. It's a very dark, but very present cabinet.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Oct 20, 2009 7:49 pm

you and i have discussed the crossover theory eric ... to separate the highs and mids for the 2X10's and hf driver and the lows for the 15" and its worked well ... my cabs sound much more balanced now ... but i understand what you say about the microphonic feedback. its real sensitive with distortion and synth sounds.

truth is, in a pinch, the peavey head straight into just the 15" sounds real good on its own. its a peavey black widow in there and it picks up the highs suprisingly clear.

perhaps after the new head (with more wattage and maybe seperate channel outs with a carvin product) the next thing is to go with a 4X10 anda 2X15.

i've played thru 8X10's and they sound great ... really good tone and well balanced ... but i just dont wanna move that beast around. thats why i've gone for sound engineering tone out of a smaller rig. its still not where i want it ... but i've been suprised by some of the comments i get.

yes ... that marshall head is nice boots. that is definately going into the mix as a consideration @ $500.

and i totally forgot eric. i've never used an acoustic amp but i've used their cabinets. the 4X10 with a fender tb-600 head sounded great. of course, with the owners permission, i drove it with my effects and processor and the cab handled everything i threw at it. i was impressed. good cabs.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:14 pm

Hope this topic isn't too old for discussion.

I was just about to post a topic about the exact same amps, so I figured I would just use this one instead of start my own. To be honest, I have no idea what to look for in amps. Could you guys maybe give me some insight into the world of amps? I know what they do (amplify!), but I don't know the difference it makes in sound between something like a 4x10 or 1x15. And so you know what I'm upgrading from, I'm still using my first amp, my Fender Rumble 15 Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:53 pm

well resurrecting old threads is ok Smile

I used to haul this stack around with me on every big or outdoor gig so I knew I would be heard Smile

I STILL love using the bottom 1x15's, but they are only used for gigs where the main stage is huge because they are very heavy.

now a days I just use 2 1x12's and a 4x10

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:05 pm

big_mits wrote:
Hope this topic isn't too old for discussion.

I was just about to post a topic about the exact same amps, so I figured I would just use this one instead of start my own. To be honest, I have no idea what to look for in amps. Could you guys maybe give me some insight into the world of amps? I know what they do (amplify!), but I don't know the difference it makes in sound between something like a 4x10 or 1x15. And so you know what I'm upgrading from, I'm still using my first amp, my Fender Rumble 15 Embarassed

Speaker configurations are usually given as AxB, A being the number of speakers and B being the diameter of each speaker. The 3 most common types of speaker are 10 inch, 12 in, and 15 inch, though 8", 18", and even 21" speakers are not unheard of. A smaller speaker will give you more punch and growl, and a bigger one will give you more low end.

BTW, 12" are supposed to be the loudest, and 10" are much better at giving you warmth than 15" speakers are at giving you brightness and punch.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:21 pm

ya....what Kugel said...
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:47 pm

Wow, Mike! I totally recognize those old cabs! What a great throw-back to the good old days! Wink

Just to throw in my own two-cents along with Mike and KS, it depends on what it is you are trying to accomplish. Think in terms of things like playing situations you'll be in, how much you can afford, how much can you haul around, etc. Also, ask yourself what sort of tone are you after. Sharp and snappy? Deep and rumbling? Hi-fi? Warmer? Single amp, or bi-amped?

Like KS said, there are a number of speaker choices available to you. A really popular choice cabinet-wise is to run a 4x10 and a 1x15, with the 4x10 usually being on the top due to it's higher frequency response. Or you could use a 4x10 and a 1x18 for more boom. You could go for a more compact system with a 2x10 and a 1x15, or you could go totally crazy with a 2x15 and an 8x10.

Amplifiers are another ball of wax. There are the hardcore Ampeg users that love that old tube warmth. Then again, you could go for the ultra-clean hi-fi tone of a Genz-Benz. A good rule of thumb is that you should have at your disposal at least twice the wattage of what your guitarist is using. If your guitarist runs a 100 watt Marshall half-stack, then you'll want to run at least 200 watts into between one and two cabinets.

I realize that this is a lot of information all at once, but it's good to know it. To make it easier, lets start with you telling us about what it is you want to achieve with your playing. Are you seeking a band? What sort of music? What sort of places to you want to play at? Or are you for now just after something louder for noodling around with?

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:08 pm

thanks Eric, typical commonly bought and used for many uses mid 80's high-end cabs for the day. the 15" bottoms STILL make good bass "projectors" Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:55 pm

I concur. I used to have a pair of folded cabs that were similar in design to your Peaveys, and they were absolutely thunderous!

Man....I've been through a lot of gear over the years! Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:35 pm

amimbari wrote:
well resurrecting old threads is ok Smile

I used to haul this stack around with me on every big or outdoor gig so I knew I would be heard Smile

I STILL love using the bottom 1x15's, but they are only used for gigs where the main stage is huge because they are very heavy.

now a days I just use 2 1x12's and a 4x10


That's an imposing backline you have, man. How did you amplify that back in the day?
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:43 pm

Thanks for all the replies (and info) guys!

Pertaining to the questions you posed Eric:

Money: Max would be probably $600.

Tone: Probably deep and rumbling, but a defined rumbling if that makes since. And most likely single amp.

Band: Don't have one, but I play with a guitarist friend frequently.

Music: I know you have probably heard this a bunch of times, but I don't really have a specific type of music I play. I don't really think I've been playing long enough to establish a set style of music; but I play whatever sounds good that day.

Places: I'm still a bedroom practicer, so this upgrade is basically just to have something louder to mess around with. But I will hopefully one day get out of the bedroom and on to bigger and better things. I was kind of hoping to get an amp with that in mind, so I wouldn't have to upgrade again until much later.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:57 pm

On a budget, the best bet is almost always to go used. For speakers, the size doesn't matter as much as the construction of the cabinet and the number of speakers, but it's still an important factor.

A solid 410 cabinet and a Hartke, Acoustic, Gallien Krueger, or Peavey amp might suit you well. Your best bet is to take your bass to a shop and try out all kinds of different stuff and see what can help you get the sound you're after.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:09 am

first .......

i feel like theres a line being blurred here. please, lets not confuse the word "amp" with a combo rig (we have guitarists to thank for that). of course a combo is an amp built into a speaker cabinet so everything is in one package (something i dont understand why anyone would desire such a thing ... so limiting). truely the word amp refers to an amplifier head. cabinets refer to the speaker cab or cabinets holding the speakers. all together its a rig. i guess the industry has never set a standard for this as all these terms i use, i use them for clarity to no avail ... but just so what i'm suggesting is clear.

i'de go with what boots sez. gallien-krueger and hartke make some decent sounding amps at a reasonable price. downsides ... i've found GK to lack warmth unless you spend the extra $300 or go fo tubes. they sound kinda like a punk sound. i have a 2yo gk backline 600 i'm looking to sell soon for cheap, just because i cant get the sound outta it i want. hartke is decent sounding stuff, but i've found it to not last and not customer service repair friendly ... something goes wrong they dont help fix it or help you get parts ... go buy a new one. i havent used them in years, maybe this has changed.

i really like the acoustics that eric suggested at the beginning of this thread. decent for the price.


cabinets ......
i go with a 2X10" top cab with a 15" on the bottom. perfect for me as far as weight, size, frequency range, practice, venues played, use at home and budget. my cabs are rebuilds as i needed specific wattage (more) and went for a specific sound. i started using peavey and rebuilding them again and again ... but peavey has reduced their model lines (i dont even think they have a 2X10" anymore, or anything like those bohemouths pictured above). peavey is great sounding cabs at a half decent price. hartke are decent cabinets but i've always found their samson speakers to be a tad weak (blow em up ... go buy a new cab). as far as on the cheap ... i have found and i think eric has just purchased sisemic audio cabinets. cheap nothin ... these cabs are great for the price. look for them on amazon and ebay as they arent carried by national music stores.

finally, i'de definately recommend that you go for the amp head and cabinet setup rather than a combo. its better to go bigger wattage and more versatility that you can have some options with cabinets and such in the future than stuck with a combo or small amp that falls short driving cabinets when you need it. if you buy more than what you need, when you dont need it ... just dont turn it up as loud.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:28 am

Martin, the Mesa 400+ powered the subs, and the QSC amp powered the rest of it thru a 3way crossover.

Like anyone from the hey-day of the 80's....back then SIZE was king king

like M.Mike, all I need now is a 4x10 and 2 1x12's with horns to keep me happy. If the gig is big, then I leave the 12's at home and drag out one of the 15" peaveys, since it only weighs about 80lbs Smile

anymore it is this rig:



the rig is a tuner,rev/chorus,compressor-expander,2 amps and the Gainiac with a footswitch for the growl and eq. This is all I use now on and off stage in the jamroom.
the rack is run thru the mixer on top so I can left/right the channels for clean-dirty, just never had a bass that had 2 outputs, but when I do...I'm ready for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:31 am

madmike wrote:
first .......

i feel like theres a line being blurred here. please, lets not confuse the word "amp" with a combo rig (we have guitarists to thank for that). of course a combo is an amp built into a speaker cabinet so everything is in one package (something i dont understand why anyone would desire such a thing ... so limiting). truely the word amp refers to an amplifier head. cabinets refer to the speaker cab or cabinets holding the speakers. all together its a rig. i guess the industry has never set a standard for this as all these terms i use, i use them for clarity to no avail ... but just so what i'm suggesting is clear.

i'de go with what boots sez. gallien-krueger and hartke make some decent sounding amps at a reasonable price. downsides ... i've found GK to lack warmth unless you spend the extra $300 or go fo tubes. they sound kinda like a punk sound. i have a 2yo gk backline 600 i'm looking to sell soon for cheap, just because i cant get the sound outta it i want. hartke is decent sounding stuff, but i've found it to not last and not customer service repair friendly ... something goes wrong they dont help fix it or help you get parts ... go buy a new one. i havent used them in years, maybe this has changed.

i really like the acoustics that eric suggested at the beginning of this thread. decent for the price.


cabinets ......
i go with a 2X10" top cab with a 15" on the bottom. perfect for me as far as weight, size, frequency range, practice, venues played, use at home and budget. my cabs are rebuilds as i needed specific wattage (more) and went for a specific sound. i started using peavey and rebuilding them again and again ... but peavey has reduced their model lines (i dont even think they have a 2X10" anymore, or anything like those bohemouths pictured above). peavey is great sounding cabs at a half decent price. hartke are decent cabinets but i've always found their samson speakers to be a tad weak (blow em up ... go buy a new cab). as far as on the cheap ... i have found and i think eric has just purchased sisemic audio cabinets. cheap nothin ... these cabs are great for the price. look for them on amazon and ebay as they arent carried by national music stores.

finally, i'de definately recommend that you go for the amp head and cabinet setup rather than a combo. its better to go bigger wattage and more versatility that you can have some options with cabinets and such in the future than stuck with a combo or small amp that falls short driving cabinets when you need it. if you buy more than what you need, when you dont need it ... just dont turn it up as loud.

Thanks for clearing up that word-usage madmike. As I said I am pretty clueless, but that actually helps a lot.

I think the Acoustics that Eric mentioned would probably be just fine for what I intend to do. So, now I just need to figure out what I want out of those...
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:39 pm

I would tend to agree with what has been said already.

BigMits, since you've named a $600 limit, here are a couple of choices. These are from Musicians Friend, and I can recommend going through them since they've always been really good to me in the past. See what you think of this:

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Acoustic-B200H-Bass-Amp-Head-B410-Bass-Speaker-Cabinet-Stack?sku=484900

Acoustic constantly receives really high marks in terms of their quality, and since they've been around for a while, they have a solid reputation. The only thing I will point out is that the amp head is rated at 200 watts going into a 4 ohm speaker load. But since the 4x10 cabinet is 8 ohms, the amp will only put out about 120 watts. This might not be a big deal, but I did want to point it out. The nice thing is that you can add a second 8 ohm cabinet for a total parallel load of 4 ohms to get the full 200 watts if you ever wanted to. And the amount of air you move with a 4x10 might be enough anyways.

Or you could go this route:

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Acoustic-B200H-200W-Bass-Head-and-B115-250W-1x15-Bass-Cab-Package?sku=483494

Again, you are limited to about 120 watts of power, and only a 1x15 cabinet instead of a 4x10, but you can still add another 8 ohm cabinet later for the full 200 watts.

Here's another possibility:

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/GallienKrueger-Brat-Pack-HalfStack-Bass-Amp-Package?sku=482546

Not as highly rated as the Acoustic, but I've owned a lot of GK gear that I really liked. A critical downside is that the amp can only be run into an 8 ohm load. If I read the specs correctly, it will not handle anything lower, and you can only get 125 watts out of it as long as you use it.

For that matter, you could go this route for about 170 watts at 8 ohms, and later add another cabinet for the full 300 watts at 4 ohms:

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/GallienKrueger-Backline-600-Bass-Head?sku=482534

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/GallienKrueger-410BLXII-4-x-10-Bass-Cabinet?sku=601054

OK....I am hesitant to point this out, but you could go with these two items together:

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-BX4500H-Ultrabass-Bass-Head?sku=481090

http://bass-guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-Ultrabass-BB410-1200W-4x10-Bass-Cabinet?sku=600606

Since the amp is rated at 450 watts, and the cabinet is 4 ohms, you'd have quite an upgrade in terms of wattage. the downsides would be that you wouldn't be able to add more cabinets since you would already be at the lowest speaker load the amp could handle, plus the fact that Behringers quality has gone down quite a bit in recent years.

Or you could mix and match different brands of heads and cabinets. Try cruising the Musicians Friend site, and do the math. You could easily come up with a decent rig for within your budget.

And like MadMike said, Seismic Audio is a great way to go for speaker cabinets. Check them out at: www.seismicaudiospeakers.com

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:21 pm

All that ohm and wattage talk is making my head spin, but I think I got it. Thanks for the help, I think I have a good idea of what I will be getting Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:01 am

eric actually did some research for you .......

iddnt he awesome! cheers

personally, for the money, i think the first acoustic rig he posted would be the best deal.

i didnt state anything like that because i'de never used one ... but i'de like to.

important key is, like eric was talking about, is being aware of ohms law and buying head / cab(s) that allow you to expand in the future. find a head and cab that will run at 8 ohms so you can parallel another in the future to run @ 4 ohms if and when you need it.

ambari,

i was thinking about stepping up to a 2X12 some time in the future. its just moving more air and a bit tighter than a 1X15. the size is comprable and allows for more wattage/price than a high priced 15" speaker (that i currently need).

we'll see what santa brings for christmas this year.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:02 am

madmike wrote:
eric actually did some research for you .......

iddnt he awesome! cheers

personally, for the money, i think the first acoustic rig he posted would be the best deal.

i didnt state anything like that because i'de never used one ... but i'de like to.

important key is, like eric was talking about, is being aware of ohms law and buying head / cab(s) that allow you to expand in the future. find a head and cab that will run at 8 ohms so you can parallel another in the future to run @ 4 ohms if and when you need it.

we'll see what santa brings for christmas this year.

Yes, yes he is. cheers

As for the ohms, I think I just became more confused. You said I should find a head and cab that runs at 8 ohms, but the head that you and Eric suggested only runs at 4 ohms. I'm thinking I just don't get ohms vs wattage... scratch

Okay... I just brushed up on my knowledge of ohms and wattage and I think I get it. More ohms = less resistance, so if I have a 200watt @ 4 ohm head and a cab that has an impedance of 8 ohms, it will take less power to get the speakers to produce sound because there is less resistance. Is that right?
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:44 pm

big_mits wrote:

Yes, yes he is. cheers

As for the ohms, I think I just became more confused. You said I should find a head and cab that runs at 8 ohms, but the head that you and Eric suggested only runs at 4 ohms. I'm thinking I just don't get ohms vs wattage... scratch

Okay... I just brushed up on my knowledge of ohms and wattage and I think I get it. More ohms = less resistance, so if I have a 200watt @ 4 ohm head and a cab that has an impedance of 8 ohms, it will take less power to get the speakers to produce sound because there is less resistance. Is that right?

you have it backwards 8 ohms is more resistance. most amps will have multiple speaker jacks for 8,4, even 2 ohms, or internally capable of 8,4,2 and the cabinet(s) has to match the output jack or the requirements of the amp...


you have a 100 watt amp @ 8 ohm head, it will run 8,4 or 2 ohms..your 1 cab is 8 ohms, you get 100 watts into it. you run 2 8 ohm cabs, now your ohms has dropped to 4, you still get 100 watts but into 2 cabs. thats why they say 100 watss@ 8 ohms 200 @4, and if the amp is 2 ohm capable 400@ 2 ohms.

the matching of cabs to amp is very important or you will cook the amp every time...I'll give you an example.

I had a soundcraftsman amp I though would work with 2 ohms, I hooked up 3 cabs to the channel, and the ohms was so low it just made the power transistors fry from almost a dead short ( dead short = less than 2 ohms ), most amps will protect with an internal sensor from this type of disaster, but again, this one did not and it cooked it...kinda like you cranking up the output, and touching the 2 speaker wires together.

let me say this with all this equipment flying around now...unless your ready to play big shows, a 100 watt amp and a 4x10 or 2x12 will be more than loud enough. In my jamroom I never use anything but what I showed in the pics ( not the full stack..lol ), and I am never drown out by the guitarists or anything else for that matter.

#2 most important bass rule....find a bass that actually ( tonally ) WILL cut thru the other members via pickups/electronics..cause I do have a bass that cannot be heard over everyone even in my small jamroom ( it is not one of the Charvels, it is the Kramer..tonally it sounds great low but gets quite muddy when the amp is cranked up. )
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:15 pm

amimbari wrote:
big_mits wrote:

Yes, yes he is. cheers

As for the ohms, I think I just became more confused. You said I should find a head and cab that runs at 8 ohms, but the head that you and Eric suggested only runs at 4 ohms. I'm thinking I just don't get ohms vs wattage... scratch

Okay... I just brushed up on my knowledge of ohms and wattage and I think I get it. More ohms = less resistance, so if I have a 200watt @ 4 ohm head and a cab that has an impedance of 8 ohms, it will take less power to get the speakers to produce sound because there is less resistance. Is that right?

you have it backwards 8 ohms is more resistance. most amps will have multiple speaker jacks for 8,4, even 2 ohms, or internally capable of 8,4,2 and the cabinet(s) has to match the output jack or the requirements of the amp...


you have a 100 watt amp @ 8 ohm head, it will run 8,4 or 2 ohms..your 1 cab is 8 ohms, you get 100 watts into it. you run 2 8 ohm cabs, now your ohms has dropped to 4, you still get 100 watts but into 2 cabs. thats why they say 100 watss@ 8 ohms 200 @4, and if the amp is 2 ohm capable 400@ 2 ohms.

the matching of cabs to amp is very important or you will cook the amp every time...I'll give you an example.

I had a soundcraftsman amp I though would work with 2 ohms, I hooked up 3 cabs to the channel, and the ohms was so low it just made the power transistors fry from almost a dead short ( dead short = less than 2 ohms ), most amps will protect with an internal sensor from this type of disaster, but again, this one did not and it cooked it...kinda like you cranking up the output, and touching the 2 speaker wires together.

let me say this with all this equipment flying around now...unless your ready to play big shows, a 100 watt amp and a 4x10 or 2x12 will be more than loud enough. In my jamroom I never use anything but what I showed in the pics ( not the full stack..lol ), and I am never drown out by the guitarists or anything else for that matter.

#2 most important bass rule....find a bass that actually ( tonally ) WILL cut thru the other members via pickups/electronics..cause I do have a bass that cannot be heard over everyone even in my small jamroom ( it is not one of the Charvels, it is the Kramer..tonally it sounds great low but gets quite muddy when the amp is cranked up. )

I get it! cheers That makes a lot more sense now, thanks a lot. Not really sure why I thought the ohms were the other way around, but I'm glad its cleared up. And I'll also keep the other bass rule in mind.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:50 pm

I'd like to clarify a couple of points Mike, if I may.

amimbari wrote:
you have a 100 watt amp @ 8 ohm head, it will run 8,4 or 2 ohms.

Not every amp will handle a speaker load of less than 8 or 4 ohms. Most will, but there are a handful that can only tolerate a specific load, and very few will handle a load of 2 ohms.

amimbari wrote:
your 1 cab is 8 ohms, you get 100 watts into it. you run 2 8 ohm cabs, now your ohms has dropped to 4, you still get 100 watts but into 2 cabs.

If your amp is rated at 100 watts into an 8 ohm load, hooking up two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel will give you a 4 ohm load, so the amp will produce more wattage, perhaps 150 to 200 watts depending on the design.

BigMits, let me try and give you some more information about speaker impedance to add to what the Guys have already said. I will try to keep it simple, but bear in mind that this is important to know.

Speakers are rated in several ways. Power handling in watts, and impedance in ohms are two important points to consider, and they are related to one another. The amplifier "sees" the speakers as a resistive load. 8 ohm speakers are higher in impedance/resistance than 4 ohm speakers are, and 4 ohms are higher than 2 ohms, etc.

The power amp section of your bass amp is designed to put out a certain number of watts into a certain speaker load. As an easy example, let's say your amp is rated to put out 200 watts into an 4 ohm load. The same amp will easily tolerate an impedance of 8 ohms, but the wattage drops to around 120 watts. As a rule, any amp will handle an increase in speaker load impedance, BUT, not all amps will tolerate a decrease in speaker load impedance.

Why you ask? Simple. Higher impedance loads slow the flow of current and wattage from the amp, and your power drops. Conversely, lower impedance of the speaker load cause more current, and thus, higher wattage, to flow from the power amp. So a 100 watt amp rated for 8 ohms will then produce higher wattage when put into a 4 ohm load since the impedance/resistance is now lower, which causes more current flow. Lower the load down to 2 ohms, and even more current flows. The problem becomes that the lower the speaker load, the closer you get to a dead short.

The reason why some amps won't handle lower speaker loads is because you get more heat with the higher current flow. Increase the speaker load, and you get lower current, and your amp runs cooler.

Any amplifier will handle an 8 ohm load fine, even if it's rated for 4 or 2 ohms. You simply get less power.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. scratch

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:22 pm

mine was the short version and written for the "non electrical engineers: Razz


you know us "learn by blowing things up" people Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:41 pm

Oh, I hear you, Mike. It's just that I have also been one of those "learn by blowing things up" folks in the past, and I'd rather that we help our friend BigMits avoid that particular learning curve, if at all possible. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Thu Nov 12, 2009 12:18 am

Wow, thanks for taking the time to write all that stuff out guys, I really appreciate the help! Very Happy Thanks for also helping me avoid the "learn by blowing things up" curve. While I do love blowing things up, I'd rather it not be my new amp/cab Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:02 am

dont blow stuff up. equipment is expensive.

this is why i keep my rig simple ............

2, 8ohm cabinets.

when i run one ... its running @ 8ohms, like sitting in front of the tv playing the commercial music or the shows theme songs. i dont need the volume or power for that, so its fine for personal practice.

when i'm at band practice and my drummer is beating the crap outta his kit and i gotta be heard over it ... i run both cabinets parallel @ 4 ohms ... less resistance, more wattage, more speakers, moving more air.

most amps that have ohms marked on the back say something like "4 ohms minimum" or "rated for 4 ohms" ... you can run this two cab theory on any of those amps fine.

where i get confused is my gk sez "8ohm load"??? with 2 output jacks that i dont know if they are parallel??? i run my two cabs as stated above and have had no problem ... i just dont like the sound of the thing. on ebay soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:55 pm

Yeah, it's one thing if you want to blow your stuff up, and quite another to do so accidentally.

MadMike, which model is your GK exactly?

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PostSubject: Re: Acoustic anyone?   Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:58 am

backline 600. its 300W @ 8ohms (and to me ... thats 150W at 4 and gk trying to make their head sound better. why dont they call it a backline 300? or even a backline 150?)



this amp is reliable. it just barely gets the job done for me. i started getting some scrachiness in the master volume pot the last few times i used it ... but its functional unless your doing the millhouse thing and cranking it up and down by the knob. it has some cosmetic scratches on the top. otherwize ... its in brand new condition.

i just never liked the tone outta this thing. it has a contour and 3 band eq but its never gotten it to the right sound ... even eq'ed with a pre. maybe for someone else who likes more mids and more attack. the bottom end this thing puts out is nice.

as soon as i order my carvin,


...........the backline will be up f/s ... $100 (+shipping). i'll post it here.
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