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Barklessdog

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PostSubject: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:48 am

The whole "Low C theory" had me thinking of bands / recordings that do not make sense, unlistenable, abrasive, minimal, what ever that take time to grasp & enjoy.

I find these bands/recording give the listener most bang for the buck, rather than disposable pop or more traditional music. I think these bands cause the listener to discover something and that to me is special.


Meshuggah - you guys got me into them. At first it was like, what is this noise & screaming / growling? But after several attempts and the right time of the day, I grasped and enjoy them now. Actually I find them almost prog rock like in their syncopated, odd time signatures and brute force. I identified with that aspect. Great band.

Captain Beefheart - Just plain weird, odd time signatures abstract lyrics and punishing songs. Later finding out the music was built from an "cult" like abuse from Beefheart that really screwed the bands minds up.

Melt Banana / Lightning Bolt / Locusts - noise rock-taught me to build songs with sound, not alway notes or traditional song writing.


Dir En Grey - I hated them at first-I am finally starting to like them. The sing pushes the boundaries of singing, screaming & noise-what should a singer be doing?

Jauquo- Low C Theory - When I first listened I could not grasp it, as to me, it sounded very free form and not a lot or any hooks, melodies, or repeating structure- but the ultra low bass soars. It is a very powerful & profound recording and exploration of the low C end.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:00 pm

Funny you should mention this topic, BD. I was waxing poetic the other day about how long it took for me to finally, really get into progressive. For many of my younger years as a listener and as a player, I simply didn't get "it" with regards to how brilliant that music was. But once I got a little older, it started to hook me, and I haven't looked back since. This is also true of much of the metal that I listen to now.

Emerson Lake & Palmer is one example of prog that, while I had always respected it, there wasn't that initial love of it until I really started picking apart just how complex and interesting the music was/is. Now, they are far and away my favorite prog band, and I can honestly say that Keith Emerson has had an enormous impact on my playing. Frank Zappa is another one. For many years, his music simply went right over my head. Now I consider his genius to be unmatched.

Then, there are bands like The Ramones, The Sex Pistols, The Clash, Iggy Pop and The Stooges, Henry Rollins, etc., that again, I had a lot of respect for, but not a lot of enjoyment of. And again, these are now some of my favorite punk bands.

Part of my problem was that I was such a giddy Van Halen fanatic for so many years (right on the heels of being such a die-hard KISS fan, which I still am to this day) that I couldn't see too much past them. But time proved to be the teacher, and my horizons are lights years from the narrow-mindedness I once had as a youth. I am now finally able to see the valuable contributions to music that each of the aforementioned artists have brought about, but I can also honestly say that I enjoy them from a purely listening standpoint.

Granted, these artists and bands have nothing to do with your original point of low-C artists, but I think there is a similarity in how liking a band can develop.

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:49 pm

Tyou guys should listen to Voivod. Very weird stuff.

YoYou also might about half the music I write
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:20 pm

eric, you make the statement like being a vh fan kept you from something or other things ... well, maybe ... but if you really think about it, eddie van halen's style was extremely progressive in its heyday and has had a tremendous impact on any and all rock music.

then everyone ripped off his tricks and it wasnt progressive at all.

then i guess its what you get down to considering what "progressive" is. is it a sound ... or approach to writing music?

elp, rush, yes?

or more like tool, meshugga, mudvayne?

or is the future and more like nin, kmfdm or god lives underwater?

i listen to all the bands i've stated above that i can catagorize as "progressive" in one way or another. i just look for music that challenges me when i listen to it ... makes me go "wow!". nickelback ... good musicians ... dont make me go wow in any kinda way = not progressive.

as these are some of the bands i listen to ... is it any wonder that 40wattsun has been catagorized as a "progressive" band? do you guys think so? cus i dont hear it. i just feel that we're a rock band.

the only progressive band i listen to a lot and didnt mention above is ozric tentacles. please, please, please chek out ozric tentacles as i feel this is the band fighting the battle against stoopid music. these guys are very talented and do more with their music than just entertain.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:25 pm

... and barkless dog ...

if your mentioning "low c theory" as a method of drop tuning, you dont need to describe it. i do drop d. anything lower just makes the strings too aldente and just sound too fretty for my taste. some do it well (down) and most do it horrible (korn).

if it is something different ... i'de never heard it before ... could you describe or post a link?
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:27 pm

To clarify, MadMike, what I meant was that I was so overwhelmed by Eddie's guitar playing that few other things could catch my ear. This was back in the 80's when I was still a teenager, and still had a lot of growing to do. I became, for lack of a better term, a musical snob.

And you're right about defining what prog is. To my ear, it defines a style of music that falls outside the "normal" 4/4 beat built around 1-4-5 progressions. But I fully recognize that even this is an over-generalization. I can easily hear what can be thought of as prog elements in bands like Tool, but they do it with more of a metal edge. Then again, you have bands like Dream Theatre that are almost what you might consider to be a patented prog metal group. Rush can also fall into this category, but can seem to fall more into the hard rock arena. Of course, this depends on what particular tune one is listening to, since something like Red Sector A almost sounds like it has elements of, dare I say, disco in it with it's synth-pulse backbeat rhythm.

Again, I think it all goes back to personal opinion, and our feeble attempts at defining one type of music from another. It's as if you attempt to describe bands like ELP, Genesis, and Yes and being prog rock, and yet they all sound completely different.

You can apply the same thing to groups like Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation, and Evanescence, by calling them symphonic metal fronted by female vocalists, but again, they all sound different from one another.

I believe we all apply generic labels to bands in general as a way of providing some sort of descriptive point-of-reference.

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:05 am

ON low C theory, your right about drop tunes but low c is really on a new level. I too thought so another drop tuning, but here it takes on a life of its own, in my opinion. I agree, I thought little of it at first (another drop tuning) , as it was hard for me to understand why it was special.

http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/JK_pages/JK_music_lowc_review.html

I also agree about categories in music as far as they are meaningless if you are a true music lover. Secret Cheifs 3 & the Dregs are good examples of bands who go everywhere, well.

Funny about Van Halen how he was so experimental & broke through, but now style is common place.

Oh I have been listening to Ozeric Tentacles for a long time. David Gilmour's son was in the band recently I believe?
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:28 pm

EricHaven wrote:
The Stooges
the Stooges Eric? yep they ALSO had a progressive song they did which was KILLER..here's a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Y6UKMp8Qw

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:03 pm

Oh, Mike! You have NO idea how much watching that clip made my evening! My sister and I grew up watching re-runs of The Three Stooges! Absolutely some of the greatest classic comedy ever to grace the airwaves! Bravo!

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:30 pm

i downloaded jaucqo III x's disc. i'll listen to it at work tomorrow.

i didnt hear anything about gilmour as an ozric ... but i haddent touched base with the band in a while. i'll chek in and see what they been up to.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:39 am

I read about it in a David Gilmour article. They said His son was the drummer? and Gilmour was tagging along on some of the tour dates (watching). That was a year or so ago.


Several things helped me be an open minded listener. One was my older brother who was drafted and went away for two years during Vietnam war. He left his record collection of early Zappa, Fuggs, Electric Spinach. He has since been collecting records and his basement is filled with about 20,000 LPs. It's a full basement stuffed floor to ceiling like a warehouse.


I feel bad for him now as the music world of discovery has passed him by. The exciting stuff is from bands over seas, non label indie stuff, that he will never hear.

M y other biggest influence was going to an Art College. They deconstructed everything and retrained your mind. Is something so bad its' good?
A bad reaction is better than no reaction. What is art, what is music?
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:42 am

Oh yeah the internet & TalkBass. I have discovered so many cool bands from Talkbass. I will listen to anything.

I know there is a lot of bad there, but also a lot o good. I really like being connected to young people. I like to be current without being a "poser".

Why can't I like new bands?
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:29 pm

Music is an extremely personal experience, so I think that people are free to listen to anything they wish. Heck, if hearing nails across a chalkboard floats your boat, more power to you! Wink

I really don't believe that there is any "bad" music. It's all in what you like or dislike.

So BD, I fully support you in wanting to listen to new bands, old bands, red bands, triangular bands, rubber bands, big bands, waist bands, whatever it is that you enjoy! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:56 pm

It's totally cool to like new bands. You get this a lot with black metal--people who will only listen to Darkthrone, Mayhem, Immortal,etc. from the early 90s and NOTHING ELSE. But black metal is flourishing with new bands and old bands that are still as hungry and dynamic as they were 20 years ago.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:51 am

Anyone have some new bands to suggest?
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:29 am

don't ask the kids BD, you'll be playing death speed metal till your fingertips blister SmileSmileSmileSmile
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:07 pm

LOL! Laughing

I don't know if these are what you are looking for BD, or even if they can be considered "new", but both Linda and I really love bands like Slipknot, Dimmu Borgir, Lacuna Coil, and Kamelot. We think of them as "new" since we only got into all of them but a couple of years ago.

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:53 pm

I don't have much to say...I mean, you guys make me look narrow-minded when it comes to the music I listen to. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 6:25 pm

here's a 2 minute quickie jam that is very hard and never rewarding enough...

well, at least to me geek

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 7:28 pm

2 bands that i have recently gotten into ........

and they arent hardcore metal ..........

boards of canada. ambient electronica.

casket salesmen. good old new age hard rock.

cheggemoot.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:04 pm

Chowderboots wrote:
I don't have much to say...I mean, you guys make me look narrow-minded when it comes to the music I listen to. Laughing

(prepares a trip down to Kirkland in order to whap Martin over the head with a whiffle bat)

scratch

Don't say things like that, Martin! You listen to a lot of different things! bounce

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:46 am

amimbari wrote:
here's a 2 minute quickie jam that is very hard and never rewarding enough...

well, at least to me geek


Very cool playing as usual. Your bass sounds great. Nice ELP!

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:48 am

This dude is amazing

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:15 am

well BD, the 2nd video is insane, the first one I could probably pull off, just note correct no slapping---but the 2nd, WOW, I'd be in the basement for a long time ---hahahaha

I'll stick to the american progressive for now Smile

that jap music always reminds me of the 80's crap synth rock, but with chipmunk voices on the speed level as dragonforce.

BTW, that's Kansas not ELP. and now that you mention it, I'll look for a ELP jam....
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:24 am

both decent players.

but dog .........

that has to be the most disturbing thing i've seen on BTF ... or anywhere, in a long time.

... espically the sailor moon dealey.

i have to go dump pleach in my eyeballs now.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:18 am

OK....now that I've had time to actually view all three videos....

affraid

First of all, Mike! As usual, you have done an incredible job with a really complex tune! And I'll admit that I also thought that was ELP, since it is almost dead-on their style. I'm not as fluent in Kansas as I ought to be.

As for the playing in the other two videos, it's off the hook!

Now....as far as the issue of the players themselves....well....

scratch

My guess as that the first one is a guy undergoing the pre-op phase of change.

The second one....is that the same person as in the first? The second one looks almost like it could be a girl....although I think I see an Adam's apple....hmmm....interesting....but, to each his....or her....own! lol!

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:42 am

the first Korean guy's song was fun to jam as something TOTALLY foreign based and bizzare, too bad I don't slap for accuracy Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:55 pm

How in the heck do you learn this stuff so danged quickly, Mike?!? Shocked

I am literally in awe of your ability to absorb new tunage so fast! Another amazing cover!

Although, your outfit is all wrong. Maybe if you wore ponytails, a silky white blouse, and white stockings, I might consider giving you higher marks. Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:43 pm

One thing I have to say is that that tune you jammed out to, Mike, sounds like a terrifying adrenaline trip!
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:34 pm

anyone who knows tbird1958 (Mark) from any of the other boards, knows he is part of a famous moneymaking band doing the same thing here in the states.

I meant with the getups obviously Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:44 pm

EricHaven wrote:
How in the heck do you learn this stuff so danged quickly, Mike?!? Shocked

I am literally in awe of your ability to absorb new tunage so fast! Another amazing cover!

Although, your outfit is all wrong. Maybe if you wore ponytails, a silky white blouse, and white stockings, I might consider giving you higher marks. Laughing
this one in particular because it has one repeating pattern thru most of it, just a few stops changes and that superfast passege before the verse comes back in, but even those are just repeating patterns.

like i said in the earlier post, sounds like 80's synth rock just sped up to me. When a tune is random and symphonic, it takes longer to memorize all the different patterns, like that SpiderSong from Kansas.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:24 am

Wow Mike, you are amazing. Its cool how you got the funk sound down without slapping.

Great sounding bass again.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Mon Aug 24, 2009 9:07 am

Barklessdog wrote:
Wow Mike, you are amazing. Its cool how you got the funk sound down without slapping.

Great sounding bass again.
lol, it is the bass that does it, I just hit the strings Smile
this song was WAY too low in tuning for this bass, (CFA#D#), but it worked....

maybe this was the tip of the "insanity" iceberg that will cause me to do MORE obscure/weird/foreign songs???
ya never know what's next I guess, ....and usually I don't, and do it on the spot, especially for youtube 1 time videos Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:37 pm

I still think you ought to give the ponytails and stockings a try. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:22 pm

i had a first listen to Jauquo- Low C Theory today. it was at work and i was busy so i wish i cudda paid more attention.

the structre of the music is very interesting ... almost jazz based, but not jazz. i really like 30's and 40's dark backroom jazz with the warm fuzzy standup bass runs, and this bassline with the super heavy gague strings in low c resembles that ... more in sound and progression than scales. so on that note i dig it.

the other instrumentation sounds shred ... in a freestyle fashion. i really like shred guitar players with a jazz or blues backround. the percussion is pretty innovative. so on that note ... i kinda dig it.

but just how this all fits together? i gotta listen to it a bunch more times. i dont know if i like how the styles fit together yet or not. wether i like it or not is insignificant tho, because i appreciate and like music that takes different ideas, sounds and styles and welds, smashes or crossbreeds them together.

this is the style that my bandmates and i approach writing music; take this and that and make its bastard lovechild and see what it sounds like. sometimes it works and sometimes it just sounds horrible, so we stick it on the back burner and re visit it later. we have been extremely conservative as far as what we've recorded and let people hear so that stuff has had a, by default, rock and roll sound.

so thanx Jauquo for your low c theory. it has given me more allowance to experiment more and not be so critical about what comes out.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:37 am

Thank you madmike for being open minded enough to at least give the Low C# Theory a brief listen. The music on that recording is what it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:21 pm

Welcome to BTF Jauquo!

Are you here because you want a trem on your Sub contra bass??? Shocked

Be welcome here!
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:27 pm

NoobOnRoad wrote:
Welcome to BTF Jauquo!

Are you here because you want a trem on your Sub contra bass??? Shocked

Be welcome here!

No not at all. I own and have owned basses over the years with Trems.

And I'm a bass player Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Tue Aug 25, 2009 7:50 pm

yeah jauqo ... i will continue to listen to it. its definately different and it intrigues me. as i listen to it more, i think i'de be able to give a better description of it.

.............. and i think thats what makes it good. it takes some thought to listen to. not for the mild mannered listener.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:04 pm

madmike wrote:
yeah jauqo ... i will continue to listen to it. its definately different and it intrigues me. as i listen to it more, i think i'de be able to give a better description of it.

.............. and i think thats what makes it good. it takes some thought to listen to. not for the mild mannered listener.


I thank you again.

It's one of those recordings that each time you listen to it, there is some thing that you didn't get from each previous listen.

I'm very proud of that recording and I have no regrets at all.


When I recorded that CD,both of the guitarists were separated. They were not in the same room and they couldn't see each other nor able to hear each other through the head phones. They were only able to hear me and the drummer. So basically the guitarists played as if they each were in a trio.


I know for a fact that The Low C# Theory is going to be revisited even more so in years to come.
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Barklessdog

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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:40 am

Jauqo III-X wrote:
madmike wrote:
yeah jauqo ... i will continue to listen to it. its definately different and it intrigues me. as i listen to it more, i think i'de be able to give a better description of it.

.............. and i think thats what makes it good. it takes some thought to listen to. not for the mild mannered listener.


I thank you again.

It's one of those recordings that each time you listen to it, there is some thing that you didn't get from each previous listen.

I'm very proud of that recording and I have no regrets at all.


When I recorded that CD,both of the guitarists were separated. They were not in the same room and they couldn't see each other nor able to hear each other through the head phones. They were only able to hear me and the drummer. So basically the guitarists played as if they each were in a trio.


I know for a fact that The Low C# Theory is going to be revisited even more so in years to come.


Thats very cool. I remember reading that Zappa woulds strip parts off of recordings and use them on different songs. I love experiments and that explains why things sound so "different" to my ears.
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:03 am

yes Jaquo, I also have done many complicated originals with multi voice-multi guitar/keys stuff, and I hope to get some online for all of the BTF gang to hear some of my vocal music, which tends to sound outside the box quite a bit.

especially the ones that have 5,6,7 part harmonies in them playing on top of the guitarwork Smile

oh, and welcome to the BTF, I also have a trembass, but I'm here to enjoy the small community of folks here, not just because of my trembass, since these folks are great for listening, watching, and constructively criticizing anything I do instead of just "that is great" or "that sucks".
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PostSubject: Re: Hard but rewarding music   Wed Aug 26, 2009 4:38 pm

I'm way late in saying this, but welcome aboard, Jaquo! Wink

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